The Horns' strategy in recruiting quarterbacks

1) The best dual-threat QB does not = best QB

2) I thought Ricky set some sort of rushing record at one time

3) I support putting the best 11 on the field, no matter what "style" of player they are
 
KC, your post was so full of gloom and doom that if I subscribed to your way of thinking I don't know how I'd make it through the day. I'll try to respond to your last 3 questions.

1) I think Texas goes after the best QB period-regardless of whether they're a pocket passer or dual-threat. Why we end up with one over the other isn't always obvious. We should not assume though that it's because we don't value the dual-threat QB just as much. There are many reasons which are never discussed publicly, why coaches choose one over the other.

2) The reasons for the admittedly disturbing lack of conference championships are also many. To put it all on the QB is just too simplistic to go into.

3) I, for one, never claimed to be "an unequivocal supporter of our passing QBs and "one-man" running-game scheme". I am, however, a supporter of Mack Brown as he's brought our program out of the depths of despair we suffered through during much of the 80's and 90's. While we don't have as many conf. championships as we'd all like, remember that in the SWC days we didn't have ou in our conference so we're not comparing apples to apples in that regard. (Just as ou wouldn't have had as many cc in the big 8 if they had had us in their old conference).

In summary, it's easy to complain that we should've/could've won more championships(conference and/or national). As a matter of fact, I can't help but wonder, if you were a USC alum would you be griping that with the recruiting hauls they've made, why aren't they winning the national championship every year? What excuses do they have??

The positives in our program far outweigh the negatives. I try to stay positive myself but I also can't help but wonder if you aren't smoking something other than BBQ up there in KC?

Have a wonderful day and take time out to be grateful for all your blessings.
 
Silly post. Colt not being a dual threat QB is comical. Ask DCs if they prepare their Ds for Colts running/scrambling ability in addition to our passing game. That is the definition of dual threat.

Until you correct this flaw the rest of the post is meaningless. Also, Gilbert is not Simms/Applewhite. He can move some. More in the Tebow mode than the Colt mode, but he can move nonetheless. The dude going to LSU is not a dual threat QB because he flat can't throw at this point in time. If he can be taught to throw then of course he will be a dual threat QB. But, right now Gilbert is the only dual threat QB of the two. Don't believe me? Ask the high school coaches if they gameplanned for any of LT's running backs or whether they were more concerned with Gilbert taking off. The answer is obvious if you have ever seen LT play.
 
Tell you what KC...I'll let Mack and staff continue to make recruiting decisions without me standing around to criticize or second guess...it strikes me that he has a very good track record at that sort of thing.

It must suck to keep digging looking for flaws (or flies in the ointment) in the current staff's recruitment of high school players. I'm sorry (NOT!) that those recruiting efforts leave you so despondent of UT's football future. I'd suggest you stay away from razor blades and meds.

From this point, I think I'll let anybody else respond to your assertions...and I do agree that this is the most inane and pointless post I've seen in the years I've read Hornfans.
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KC your post seems to imply that a dual threat QB is what you have to have to win MNC's which is not the case you just win your games and win the Championship game and you have a chance to win the MNC's, if I recall we lost games in those 9 years that cost us the chance to play for MNC and Conf Titles and it had nothing to do with being a dual threat QB- it was because we were beat by another team on the field - But you are very wrong if you do not think that Colt is considered a dual threat QB- ask any Defensive Corrdinator out there about that- and I have witnessed the Vanilla Vince" play and he is every bit as good as Colt and very much a dual threat QB- I even heard an out of state coach during a game say, " it does not matter what we prepared for he is going to beat us! we stack the line he kils with his passing, we double cover the WR's and he runs all over us" sounds like a dual threat to me- after the game coach told me he was even better in person than on film! I cannot wait to see Vanilla play!
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Last time I checked the depth chart, John Chiles & Sherrod Harris were still listed as our #2 & #3 QBs. Both fit the definition of "dual threat" to a T. I have serious doubts whether either one will ever rise to the starting QB position, but it certainly belies the point that "Mack doesn't recruit dual-threat quarterbacks."

When you think about the '07 Nebraska game, when we dominated their D after Davis started calling run plays for Colt, it does make you wonder why McCoy doesn't run it more often by design (like the Fiesta Bowl).
 
Speaking of the Fiesta Bowl, I saw what happens when a QB can really run but not really threaten the defense passing. One of their TDs was with Pryor catching the ball remember. Will Pryor get better, yeah. But if they don't win a MNC with him they won't be any better than Texas with Colt last year. How scary would OhSt have been with Beanie Wells running and a QB with a big arm to throw down the field. College and the Pros are different but if you run the ball well (90s Cowboys) your QB doesn't have to run. After all, the greatest team ever (wink wink) had a tailback and a one-man running-game scheme and had no trouble on offense (USC).
 
Appreciate the differing views expressed in this discussion ...

... and understand the point mentioned by several posters that utilizing a dual-threat QB (who participates in the team's designed running plays) is not the only alternative that the 2009 Horns have to create a less predictable and more effective running-game scheme.

It is correct that successful major-college football programs such as Florida, USC and Oklahoma have found ways (in this millennium) to tailor their running-game schemes to attack the perceived weaknesses of their particular opponent in an aggressive and systematic way ... something that we did not see, imo, from the Horns with our running-game plans in the 2008 TTech game. Even so, Oklahoma has fared better in regard to the running game when the Sooners either have a significant overall player-talent advantage (a factor which also applies in the Horns' case) or when the Sooners are facing an opponent (e.g., Texas) with comparable player-talent that also uses the same limited (NFL-style) one-man running-game scheme.

When Oklahoma has to face an opponent with comparable player-talent and a more sophisticated running-game scheme (e.g., Florida or even West Virginia), it's a different story.

And even in USC's case, where their player-talent advantage is national recruiting news, when the 2005 Trojans (ESPN's "best college football team ever") removed Reggie Bush from the field on the renowned 4th-and-two play in the fourth quarter of the BCS title game with Texas ... there was no one left as a viable running threat for the Trojans but LenDale White ... and the Horns' Michael Huff observed after the game that Pete Carroll's decision to take Reggie out of the game on that play enabled Texas to focus its defensive firepower on stopping LenDale, which, as we all know, the Horns did successfully to make the key defensive play in the game.

Similarly, Oklahoma's one-man running-game scheme was stopped cold near the goal line by Florida in the most recent BCS title game ... and the Gators' more sophisticated running-game scheme (with three viable running threats on the football field at the same time) clearly had the advantage in that contest over the Sooners' more simplistic and predictable approach to the ground game.

The "problem" for the Horns (from the standpoint of recruiting dual-threat QB prospects) appears, imo, to be our determination to keep using our totally-predictable "Pickett's Charge" version of the one-man running-game scheme (with a passing QB) under Mack & Greg -- without having made, in the past decade, any discernable (on the football field) effort to improve our unsuccessful approach with the ground game. That is why recruiting dual-threat QBs arguably is critical in the Horns' case, because there is no indication, from their past coaching history, that Mack & Greg have any interest in devising another way (beside utilizing a dual-threat QB) to create substantive misdirection in their otherwise predictable one-man running-game scheme.

Having All-Conference RBs such as Ricky, Hodges, Cedric and Jamaal -- not to mention a list of All-Conference offensive linemen that is too long to print -- has not been a panacea for the Horns' running-game problem. The only exception, so far, to the perennial collapse of the Texas running game in our key Conference losses each season under Mack & Greg has occurred when we utilized a dual-threat QB to give us two viable running threats on the football field at the same time.

Vince accomplished that purpose for the Horns, but he certainly is not the only dual-threat QB in major-college football who has accomplished the feat in recent football seasons. Pat White led West Virginia (despite their overall player-talent disadvantage vs. the Sooners) to a decisive win over Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl at the end of the 2007 season, and Florida has won two MNCs while incorporating the running ability of both QB Tim Tebow and WR Percy Harvin into the Gators' running-game scheme.

The question, imo, is whether the Horns' adjustment of our one-man running-game scheme that worked so well, with Vince, in the 2005 football season is a one-time thing for Mack & Greg ...

... which appears to be the case if they no longer intend to recruit true dual-threat QB prospects ...

... or whether the UT offensive coaches will find other creative alternatives (such as Florida's use of Percy Harvin in a combination WR/RB role) to generate substantive misdirection in the running-game scheme for the 2009 Horns.

We'll see what happens down the road.

Hook 'em.
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KC
No question, in would be great to have another Vince.

I think RV raised the best point. During that 0-9 set, those that did win conference championships did not do it with dual threat QB's.

I think I can count maybe 2 MNC's won in the last two decades with dual threat QB's. They are rare, like left handers, which is why football is not built around that strategy.

The sheer statistics do not work, in the long run, for this to be the number one strategy. IMHO.

Like you, I would sure like to see a conference championship, and a little more effective o as an ingredient to that end.
 
Pssst. Steve Worster, Roosevelt Leaks, and Earl Campbell aren't here anymore. I loved those days, but that style is out of fashion now. Our running plays are usually short passes to a tight end, or receiver or back behind the line of scrimmage.
We were one play from the BCS championship game running this scheme. We can win with it.
If we get a great zone read qb, we will run those plays more. Otherwise, adapting to the talents we have is the better way. If we get a Ricky Williams back there, we will run more conventional running plays for him.
 
Does anyone know if we are really recruiting Nick Montana (Joe's Son)?

Nick Montana, son of NFL Hall of Famer Joe Montana, has been offered by Maryland, Ohio State, South Carolina, LSU, Stanford and Arizona, according to Oaks Christian coach Bill Redell, affiliate Web site Bucknuts.com reports.

Redell added that he expects Texas and Alabama to offer the ESPNU 150 Watch List quarterback.

Montana also gave a timetable for his commitment, "I'm going to try to make a decision as soon as possible. I would like to make a decision by early summer, maybe even during the spring."

Last fall, he completed 133 of 241 pass attempts (55.2-percent) for 2,402 yards, 33 touchdowns and seven interceptions.
The Link
 
We were never recruiting Montana nor will we.

We have Case McCoy in fold, and if Connor Wood committs we're done at QB.
 
arnt JC and Harris "duel threat"?

mack did recruit them right?

how about RP... I know he did not come, but mack recruited him.


snead also had some wheels.
 
Thanks, NBMisha - always enjoy your perspective (including the one reflected in your tagline) -- hope all is going well.

Your point (that there are other alternatives for improving the Horns' running-game scheme besides the use of a dual-threat QB) is correct -- if the UT offensive coaches had demonstrated, during the past decade, any interest in utilizing those other alternatives. Instead, what we've seen on the football field is the same running-game scheme (and futility) in our key Conference losses (with a passing QB and our current offensive coordinator) from 1998 (even with Ricky Williams at RB) through 2008.

In fact, the 1998 Horns -- in the year that Ricky won the Heisman -- were out-rushed by TTech in Lubbock as the Red Raiders upset Texas, a defeat that kept us (along with our earlier loss that season to KState, which held Ricky to 1.7 yards rushing-per-carry) from participating in the Big-12 Championship game. Then, in 2008, the Horns once again were out-rushed by TTech in Lubbock, as the Red Raiders upset Texas -- a defeat which once again kept us from participating in the Big-12 Conference Championship game.

Sometimes, the more things change (like our five Defensive Coordinators during Mack's coaching tenure at The University of Texas), the more they stay the same (like the results with our predictable one-man running-game scheme on offense).

For example, in that same 1998 football season, KState held the Horns (as a team) to 53 yards rushing on 28 carries -- an average of 1.9 yards-per-carry. If those numbers seem familiar, it may be because in the last game of this past season (2008), Ohio State held the Horns (as a team) to 54 yards rushing on 29 carries -- also an average of 1.9 yards-per-carry.

Back in the 2001 football season, the Horns had the No. 1 defense in the Country -- which held Oklahoma's offense (in the 2001 RRS) to just 7 points. Texas still lost the game, as our offense scored only 3 points in the contest -- while the Horns rushed for 27 yards on 25 carries, an average of 1.1 yard-per-carry. Interestingly, on the only scoring drive by the OU offense in that game, backup QB Jason White (who was a more mobile QB than starter Nate Hybl) came off the bench and set up the Sooners' TD with an 11-yard run.

So far, neither Texas nor Oklahoma ever has won the RRS (during the coaching tenures of Mack Brown at UT and Bob Stoops at OU) when being out-rushed by its opponent. We are talking about the current era in that regard ... not the days of Bobby Layne and James Street.

While the Horns have not yet devised a plan (during the current era) to improve our running-game scheme when we utilize a passing QB, we obviously did improve our running-game scheme (under GD) when we utilized a dual-threat QB (Vince) to give the Horns a second viable running threat that created substantive misdirection in our running game. That is the point here -- not that a dual-threat QB is the only alternative that could solve our running-game problem, but that a dual-threat QB is the only alternative that the current UT offensive coaches actually have been willing to utilize to solve our running-game problem.

Under the circumstances, continuing to recruit dual-threat QB prospects clearly would seem to be in the best interests of The University of Texas football program ... and, in fact, dual-threat QBs have helped their teams win three of the last four MNCs (2005, 2006 and 2008). Tim Tebow and Vince Young are not the same player, but they both have succeeded at the top level of intercollegiate football competition as dual-threat QBs. No one has compared Pat White to Vince Young, but Pat White still led his West Virginia team to a decisive win over Oklahoma (which earlier in the same season had defeated Texas) in the Fiesta Bowl at the end of the 2007 season.

Rivals recently evaluated how the major-college football teams did with their recruiting on the 2009 National Signing Day, and here's a summary (from their perspective) of which teams fared best in recruiting at the QB position.

QUARTERBACK

1. LSU
The Tigers landed two quarterback prospects headlined by five-star dual-threat Russell Shepard.

2. USC
The Trojans only landed one quarterback but it was Matt Barkley, the nation's No. 1 pro-style quarterback.

3. Texas
The Longhorns landed their quarterback of the future in Garrett Gilbert, who shattered about every passing record in the Lone Star State.

4. Georgia
The Bulldogs signed two four-star quarterbacks, including Rivals100 selection Aaron Murray.

5. Auburn
The Tigers signed three quarterbacks in the class, including four-star dual-threat quarterback Tyrik Rollison, who rivals Shepard and Texas-bound Gilbert as the Lone Star State's best.

Summary: It will be interesting to see, down the road, the results (on the football field) of these QB recruiting issues for the Horns and our competitors.

Hook 'em.
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I saw GG play twice this year. He doesn't look slow to me. He is a long strider who can create some distance. The lad is no slowpoke.
 
cochamps - that is an interesting observation.

During his senior year at Class 5A Houston Cypress Ridge, Russell Shepard completed 116 of 211 passes (55 percent) for 1,843 yards -- with 20 TD passes and 4 interceptions. During his senior year at Class 5A Houston Madison, Vince completed 131 of 224 passes (58 percent) for 2,545 yards -- with 35 TD passes and 4 interceptions.

Vince, in his senior year of HS football competition, also carried the football 116 times for 1,274 yards -- with 24 TDs on the ground. Russell, in his senior year, carried the football 257 times for 1,946 yards -- with 28 TDs on the ground.

In total offense, Vince accounted (with his running and passing as a HS senior) for 3,819 yards and 59 TDs ... and Russell accounted (by the same measure) for 3,789 yards and 48 TDs.

Interestingly, when Pat White completed his senior year of HS competition in Mobile, Alabama -- he was listed by Rivals at the same height and weight as Russell Shepard is listed now, and Pat White (in his HS senior year) carried the football for 1,905 yards and 31 TDs, while passing for 1,488 yards and 15 TDs. In total offense, Pat accounted (that year) for 3,393 yards and 46 TDs.

With those stats, it certainly is arguable that Russell Shepard legitimately could be considered a QB prospect comparable to Vince, Pat or Garrett Gilbert [and, in fact, Rivals does rank Shepard higher than Pat White was back in 2004, or GG is this year, and somewhat lower overall (but still the No. 1 dual-threat QB prospect in the Country) than Vince in 2002] ... and any questions regarding that issue (as it relates to GG and RS) could have been settled on the football field if the Horns had simply recruited "both" Garrett Gilbert and Russell Shepard (as QB candidates) in our 2009 recruiting class.

The Horns had room under the grant limits (per Mack's statements in his Signing Day press conference) to sign three more players in the 2009 recruiting class -- but we made a special early commitment arrangement (before Junior Day) with GG as a QB candidate and then cut off our QB recruiting, rather than offering "both" Garrett Gilbert and Russell Shepard as QB candidates (not one as a QB candidate and the other as a WR candidate) at The University of Texas on Junior Day.

On the current Case McCoy thread in this forum, there is some discussion as to how Case would measure up to other QB prospects the Horns might recruit at that playing position. In that regard, Oilfield has posted, as follows:

"One thing we know about the McCoy boys is that they don't shy away from competition. Gotta love that. Maybe Gilbert will be his backup some day. Competition is good for every position."

Why is it that competition with GG (at the QB playing position) now is considered to be good with Case McCoy in the Horns' 2010 recruiting class, but was not considered to be good with Russell Shepard in the Horns' 2009 recruiting class?

Is it in the best interests of The University of Texas football program to limit the competition at the QB playing position to "passing QBs" (regardless of their individual national rankings) -- as compared to how we recruit nationally-ranked blue-chippers to compete against each other at all other playing positions?

Why did we not recruit "both" Garrett Gilbert and Russell Shepard as QB candidates in our 2009 class ... and then add Case McCoy to the mix in our 2010 class -- and let all three of them compete for playing time at QB in The University of Texas football program?

Hook 'em.
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Yeah, but Wood's not a dual threat quarterback. He "only" runs a 4.5 40. Same way Colt's not a dual threat quarterback in spite of leading the team in rushing this season, or Gilbert's not a dual threat in spite of rushing for over 600 yards.
 
Appreciate the observations related to the commitment from Connor Wood -- the QB of the TAPPS Division II-District 4 Houston Second Baptist Eagles.

Congrats to Connor, and agree that he appears to be another promising passing QB -- perhaps in the Major and Colt mode (with Colt's mobility), which is good company. In that regard, Major was 22-8 (73.3%) as a starting QB at Texas, while Colt currently has a 32-7 (82%) record as a starting QB for the Horns.

Chris Simms finished his intercollegiate football career with a 26-6 (81.3%) record as a starting QB for Texas, and Garrett Gilbert appears to be comparable (imo) to Simms as a quarterback prospect out of HS -- although Garrett appears to be more mobile, while Chris was the more highly-ranked and recruited QB prospect in relative terms.

Major and Chris did not quarterback, and -- so far -- Colt has not quarterbacked, a University of Texas football team that won a Conference title. There are mitigating circumstances for all three QBs, but the results, so far, are the same.

The two leading dual-threat QBs for the Horns -- in terms of winning percentage as starting quarterbacks at Texas -- are James Street, with a 20-0 (100%) record, and Vince Young, with a 30-2 (93.8%) record. Each of them led the Horns to a Conference title (two in Street's case) and an MNC.

The difference between dual-threat QBs and passing QBs arguably affects more than just individual passing and rushing stats -- the leadership and athletic ability of the quarterback to help the "team" win football games (and titles) is critical ... and that is why Darrell said (as noted in the initial post of this thread) that he was glad to have Eddie Phillips at QB for the 1970 MNC Horns.

Now, we have a new era in major-college football that clearly emphasizes the passing game, and that -- per se -- could account for the current emphasis on recruiting passing QBs for the Horns ... were it not for the fact that the best dual-threat QBs not only could bolster the Horns' otherwise predictable running game (by participating as a second viable running threat on designed running plays), but also have been able to pass the football effectively, e.g., Street was a great clutch passer for Texas, and Vince finished in the Top-Three nationally in the 2005 NCAA passing-efficiency ratings.

All of which may not resolve this issue, but it does make things interesting for Texas as we watch, down the road, to see how things work out for the Horns and our competitors on the football field.

Those of us in the Horns' camp will be supporting The University of Texas football program, rain or shine, and hoping that the 2009 Horns will become the first UT football team in Mack's coaching tenure here to win a Conference title with a passing QB ... and, perhaps, also with some variation in our running-game scheme.

There is a first time for everything, and we have a favorable schedule (on paper) this Fall. Let's hope the 2009 Horns -- with Colt, who will be in his fourth year as our starting QB -- put the matter to rest.

We'll see what happens.

Hook 'em.
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