The Horns' strategy in recruiting quarterbacks

kchorn

250+ Posts
The days of true dual-threat QBs leading the Horns' football teams to Conference titles and MNCs appear to be over.

Outstanding QB leaders such as Bobby Layne, Duke Carlisle, James Street, Eddie Phillips, James Brown and Vince Young (all of whom were UT quarterbacks who could run with the football effectively on designed running plays, and also completed key passes with all the chips on the table for the Horns) epitomize the advantages on the football field that a true dual-theat QB can bring to the team -- however, apparently the benefits of that approach (which have been underscored in Florida's' past two MNC seasons by dual-threat QB Tim Tebow) no longer are valued at The University of Texas ...

... where we apparently are looking, instead, for those QB prospects who are effective passers, and also possess (we hope) enough mobility to make what Mack calls "impromptu" runs on some occasions when the pass receivers are covered (an approach which is distinguished from that utilized with a true dual-threat QB, who is an effective passer and also can contribute as a viable running threat not only on "impromptu" scrambles, but also on our "designed" running plays).

The question for some of us in the Horns' camp is whether the current recruiting standard (which appears to produce only "passing QBs" in our recruiting classes) is high enough to get The University of Texas football program over the top when it comes to winning Conference titles and, possibly, MNCs.

In that regard, the Horns have won two Conference football titles since the Big-12 Conference was inaugurated in 1996 -- one of those Conference titles was won with James Brown at QB (and he actually was the player who was intended to carry the football on the famous fourth-and-inches play vs. Nebraska in the Conference championship game -- and that running threat worked, when the Huskers' defense tried to stop James Brown from running ... and, instead, he pulled up on the play and threw the football successfully to a wide-open receiver, Derek Lewis), and the Horns' other Big-12 Conference football title was won with Vince Young at QB.

That is a significantly better record for the Horns (in terms of winning Conference titles, not to mention the 2005 MNC) with true dual-threat QBs (as distinguished from passing QBs) ... just as Texas also has won its other MNCs (in 1963, 1969 and 1970) with true dual-threat quarterbacks, who were viable running threats -- on "designed" running plays -- that added misdirection and unpredictability to our running-game scheme.

James Brown was not "another Vince" ... but James Brown did lead to the Horns to a Big-12 Conference football championship. Russell Shepard may or may not be "another Vince" ... but, in the 2009 recruiting class, Shepard was the highest-ranked QB prospect in the State of Texas by most, if not all, of the "national" recruiting services.

Are the leading QB candidates in the 2010 recruiting class (from the Horns' perspective) considered to be better QB prospects for The University of Texas football program than national-level blue-chippers such as true dual-threat QB prospects Russell Shepard (LSU), Tyrik Rollison (Auburn) and Cody Green (Nebraska) from the 2009 recruiting class -- any of whom could have been recruited alongside GG this year and then redshirted in the 2009 football season?

The bottom line, at the moment, arguably is that the "passing QBs" under Mack & Greg at Texas (i.e., Major, Chris, Chance and Colt) never have led their teams to a Conference title. They currently are 0-9 in that department. And yet our recruiting philosophy at this point appears to be focused on recruiting more passing QBs -- with no true dual-threat QB prospects being recruited to compete at UT with those passing-QB prospects.

Here is an observation from Darrell Royal -- made during the Horns' 1970 MNC season, but perhaps still germane today:

"You can talk about your drop-back passers and your pro prospects all you want to, but it takes some kind of athlete to run our team the way Eddie Phillips does. It takes an athlete to read the option, make the handoff, keep and run as well as he does, or make the pitch and then throw a block. You take the guys with the stats. I want Eddie."

Yes, times have changed since then, but the only two Big-12 Conference titles won by the Horns (in this era) have come with UT football teams led by true dual-threat QBs.

So, why are we no longer recruiting any true dual-threat QBs at The University of Texas?

Hook 'em.
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Colt McCoy has over 1200 career yards rushing, and led the team in '08 with like 570. As Rodney Daingerfield would say "tough crowd".
 
cochamps - appreciate your point.

Most of Colt's rushing yardage for the Horns has come on what Mack describes as "impromptu" runs, or scrambles -- as distinguished from our "designed" running plays. In our losses to Ohio State and A&M in the 2006 season, and to KState, Oklahoma and A&M in the 2007 season, and to TTech in the 2008 season ... there was little, if any, effort (successful or otherwise) by Colt to run the football on any of our "designed" running plays.

That often can lead to overall running-game problems for the Horns' offense -- which, in turn, can lead to increased pass-rush pressure on Colt.

We possibly could off-set that problem with a more creative running-game scheme (like Florida's), but there arguably has been no substantive effort by the UT offensive coaches during the past decade to take that approach.

Which gets us back to the dual-threat QB issue.

Hook 'em.
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Maybe we should emulate the Sooners in their quarterback recruiting. Stoops' quarterbacks wouldn't remind anybody of Jack Mildren but they have had a modicum of success in conference titles.
 
Maybe he's just taking the best of whats available.

If the next VY is in high school a few years from now, I am confident UT will go after him. Mack is good at diagnosing a recruits best position (told VY he was a QB, Paul Thompson a WR).

Give him a break if your talking about Pryor, who was an OOS. Thought Shepards future probably wasn't at QB so he went after GG. Thought he'd all around make a better QB.

FWIW Texas high school football is shifting towards the spread, as is college. That means less polished running QBs available. Better to take the top QB, or just a good one that can really run?
 
Peaks and valleys. In between all those QBs you named, was there ever a time where we didn't have a running QB? I think so.

Just because VY, Layne, or Street isn't the QB today, doesn't mean that he won't be 6 years from now. There is a difference between not now and never.

Colt is no slouch himself
 
James Brown was NOT a dual threat QB. Maybe in a different system he could have been a great one but under John Mackovic he was not given that opportunity.

I quickly reviewed the stats from his years as a starter and it appears he never rushed for over 300 yards in one year (and I am not even subtracting his losses, just yards gained).
 
Look at the RBs between the Brown Era and the McCoy era and hopefully you would think, "why have my QB run when I have Ricky, Cedric, Jamaal with some Hodges mixed in there".

Yeah Vince and Jamaal were there together some but it's hard to compare anyone to what Vince could physically do. Terell Pryor will have a chance but let's tap the brakes for now.

James Brown may have been considered dual-threat but he wasn't running around the place on designed runs. It was mostly those "impromptu" runs. His last 2 years at Texas he had a permanently sprained ankle if I remember right. You think Mackovic's pro offense needed a running QB?

Ben Roethlisberger doesn't beat you running but he escapes and makes throws. Not that he is the greatest QB or anything but I would bet most teams you prefer a guy that can throw really well as long as he isn't a sitting duck (Drew Bledsoe in Dallas).
 
kchorn,

This is your same old blather on and on and on again. Get over yourself already. I know you like to hear yourself talk so for everyone’s sake please come up with some new cause to moan and groan and ***** about. You are extremely tiresome.

Vince Young was a once in a lifetime QB. You will go to your grave and never see his like in college football again, so move on pal. TEXAS can’t recruit Vince Young every year no matter how many times you twist and massage your same old ***** about “dual threat QBs.” Don’t even bother to respond to me because I refuse to ever look at another one of your threads. They are all the same and totally useless.
 
Not sure I'll be as depressed as kchorn seems to be about not having another VY, but it seems GD, going back to UGa and his first QBs here, were all traditional passing QBs. We couldn't pass on VY, and we made it work by changing our offense. I personally think Mack and GD prefer a more traditional passing offense with a traditional running attack, which is why I think we took Whaley whom it seems doesn't fit necessarily in a the spread offense. I could be wrong, but that's my take on it.
 
In my opinion its a Greg Davis deal. I think he wants a pro-style QB with a lot of interchangeable weapons in running backs and receivers.

I think Davis has felt dictated to by a few certain huge talents he's been "saddled" (bizarre as it may sound) with, namely Ricky, Ced and Vince. When you have guys like these on campus, heavily recruited heisman-type candidates, you are obligated to feed them the ball, or in Vince's case just gtfo of the way.

I believe last season was likely GD's favorite. Colt got all the credit for the offense and GD molded Colt, so I think GD got satisfaction out of that. Right now I think GD is getting to recruit more towards his ideal system. A RB committee, a receiving committee and a QB to execute his short pass-heavy system

I just hope young GG has a reliable running back, because I don't think he's the runner that Colt is. GG will need to be more mobile than Simms and he'll need a RB more dynamic than Hodges Mitchell.
 
Some people look at the glass and see it half full. Other people look at the glass and see it half empty. KC looks and sees an empty glass, and goes into meticulous detail on how it got that way.
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Kc used to be about the most positive guy on this site. Chiles not getting more pt from the get-go really seems to have stuck in his craw. I understand where his gripe is coming from (hard to win the conference when the running game sucks). An east/west zone running game needs misdirection to be consistently effective. If the QB seldom keeps on designed runs, you have no reason to play him honest and are free to blow up the rb instead. I think Colt is completely capable of doing this, but GD and Mack are afraid of getting him hurt. As good as we were passing the ball last year, everyone should agree that the lack of a credible running game hurt. I don't give a rip about the formation. I just want something we can count on when we need it. If Colt isn't going to keep the ball by design, and we are going to keep the 4-wide shotgun, we need to change our blocking scheme and let our big boys go hat on hat. With Whaley, we should consider what Oregon does with their big back...line him up 2-3 yards further back, so that he's going downhill and not getting the ball at a standstill (and have to dodge a guy before he has any forward momentum). Oh yeah, and drive block. If we don't do that, then put Colt/GG under center with 3/wr and a TE/H back and line the rb up 7-8 deep. If we aren't going to change the running scheme, then we will need a guy the coaches are willing to let carry the ball 10-15 times a game. Again, I think Colt could easily do this.

Edit: I think GG could do it as well, and I think he was the right choice, over Shepard. As for our scheme, I think we'll see some tinkering with Gilbert and Whaley. Offenses are more pass-first these days, but the teams that win championships, including ours in 2005, could run when they wanted/needed to. Our 2008 edition could not or did not. GD and Mack have indicated that this is something they intend to change, which is a good thing.
 
All of those things are good suggestions. It's just that constant griping about the Horns' running game, or lack of one, isn't gonna change the thinking of the coaching staff. By and large, college football has changed its' approach to offense. Most of the really successful teams these days look to pass first, with a complimentary running attack. The days of ramming the ball down a defense's throat, and winning a lot of 17-14 games are pretty much over. It would be nice if we could find another Ricky, but on the whole, I'm not displeased with Greg Davis' offense these days. You've gotta play to your strengths, and I think Texas does a very good job of that. Obviously, those who vote in the polls do too.
 
Agreed...actually, when our backfield is Gilbert and Whaley, with the fleet of receivers we have, I think Texas will pretty much be able to do whatever they want on offense to just about anyone.
 
Isn't it just the best available, and who we have to compliment the qb? How much do you want the qb to run if Ricky Williams or Earl Campbell is lined up behind him?
Another factor is this: we pretty much play just one qb, who gets most of the snaps. The injury factor is important, moreso than at any other position. A bunch of running plays for the qb makes him more susceptable to injury. But if we have a great runner, like VY, I'm sure the qb will get more rushing attempts.
OU qbs almost never run. It isn't the only way to move the ball downfield. You have the rules of the game changed radically to favor the passing game, i.e. holding rules for linemen, and this is what is in fashion with the pros, so the best college qbs want to be in a similar system. That's just the way it is right now, running is becoming relegated to the back burner.
 
Kchorn, you could be right. We'll have to wait several years to see. My guess is that Garrett Gilbert will have a better college career at quarterback than Russell Shepard will have at quarterback.

Mack Brown is not perfect in his recruit evaluations, but he does pretty well. It's pretty clear that Mack does recruit dual-threat quarterbacks. He just doesn't guarantee them they will get to play quarterback. If they are afraid to come to UT and compete for the quarterback position, then they aren't the kind of quarterback we want.

Just for the record, Vince Young is a great runner. However, many of his runs were impromptu runs when a pass play was called.
 
Bobbye Layne a dual threat? not saying the guy couldn't run, but he was called the bomber for a reason.

James Street, love the guy, but he was a running back who threw the ball occassionally in todays parlance.

JB was not a dual threat QB, 90% of his runs were on plays that he scrambled.

nice DKR quote, course he also said that "3 things can happen when you throw the ball, and 2 of them are bad."

If this is moaning over passing on sheperd, who nodbody believes will actually play QB, or not playing Chiles more....
 
Sheppard is no comparison to Vince. Vince's most impressive stats in high school were his passing numbers. He had something like 40 td passes against two interceptions his senior year in high school. He wasn't running the wishbone.

The early reply about OU is also apt. They've been knocking down conference titles with guys who were not dual threat QBs (Heupel, White and Bradford).
 
I also think Gilbert will surprise people as a runner. I doubt he will get as many designed runs, or long "impromptu" runs, but I think he has the ability to pick up 1st downs with his feet.
 
The Horns' strategy in recruiting quarterbacks seems like it sucks.
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To call James Brown a dual threat QB and to state that Coly McCoy is not a dual threat QB is just madness. Colt is more athletic than Brown in every single measurable way. He is faster, jumps higher, more elusive, more explosive, taller, heavier, runs better, throws better and pretty much does everything better than Brown.

The only way Brown is more similar to Vince than Colt is the color of his skin. In every other way, Colt is more similar to Vince and is more of a dual threat QB.

IIRC, Colt out passed and out rushed Tebow this year. Colt was the preeminent dual threat QB in the nation this year.

Garrett Gilbert is a bigger version of Colt.
 
Appreciate the responses, pro and con.

The following questions are for those who believe "all is well" with our current (2008-2009) QB recruiting and our "one-man" running-game scheme, under Mack & Greg, with a passing QB:

(1) Do you believe the Horns are making a bonafide effort to recruit the best dual-threat QB prospects in the State of Texas as quarterback candidates for The University of Texas football program? If so, please identify those QB prospects you have in mind.

(2) Do you believe the Horns' "one-man" running-game scheme (with a passing QB), under Mack & Greg, ever has worked effectively in our Big-12 Conference losses in any season -- starting with 1998, when we had Ricky (and KState held him to 1.7 yards rushing-per-carry) through 2008? If so, please indicate the losses in Big-12 Conference play the Horns have experienced (with a passing QB) during the Mack & GD era -- e.g., the 2008 TTech game -- in which you believe our running-game has been effective.

(3) How long do you, as an unequivocal supporter of our passing QBs and "one-man" running-game scheme (under Mack & Greg) plan to support that approach -- since we are 0-9, so far, in those football seasons in terms of Conference titles (much less MNCs), and since Mack & Greg never -- in their intercollegiate coaching careers -- have won a Conference title utilizing that offensive approach? If the response is that it's fine for Texas go "forever" under Mack & Greg (with a passing QB and their one-man running-game scheme) without winning a Conference football title, please indicate whether you believe that finishing second is the best the Horns can do on the football field.

In reference to some of our previous dual-threat QBs at Texas, Bobby Layne actually began his intercollegiate football career with the Horns as a tailback and fullback (he also played some defensive back and once returned an interception 97 yards for a TD, and in the 1946 Cotton Bowl game vs. Missouri, he caught a 50-yard touchdown pass -- as well as scoring 4 TDs on the ground and passing for 2 more TDs in that game) ... and James Street was one of the best clutch passers we've ever had at Texas.

Of course, whether you appreciate the results for Texas on the football field with Layne, Carlisle, Street, Phillips, Brown and VY (as compared to those with Major, Chris, Chance and Colt) may depend in part on whether you prefer titles or stats.

Hook 'em.
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No offense, but this is one of the most retarded threads in the long history of this website. You think that comparing Bobby Layne to today's football game will reveal anything? You think the only way to judge a QB's performance is by conference championships? Ridiculous. If UT had Cincy or TCU on the schedule last year, we'd have one more conference championship (but then I'm sure you would consider Colt a running QB, which of course, he actually is). Has a running QB besides VY actually won a Big XII title? Good lord, this is all a transparent jab at GD and Mack's supposed inability to win w/o VY, which is a stupid point in its own right.
 
Last season we had 1 Sr. RB who worked hard and had a few very good games, another RB with 1 season of limited experience and 2 other guys who had no collegiate experience. There are some redshirts coming off and we have at least 1 stud RB recruit coming, not to mention the o-line will be out of diapers. The running game will improve. As for QBs, they have to want to come here, so the "strategy" seems to be to offer the best guys in the state, maybe outside the state if there is something we want out there, and sign the ones that want to be Longhorns. It isn't like we're the N.Y. Yankees and its just a question of money.

As for comparing wishbone QBs to todays variety, that simply does not make any sense in the least. Different approach to a vaguely similar game.
 

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