WRT to the ladder thing, how are they gonna get ladders on the American side? Is every one of these illegals gonna want to drop the 8'-10' on the other side? Is a mother with a child gonna do that?
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Wow. Lots of ways. First, a sympathetic or greedy person on the American side could provide one. Second, they could pick up the ladder while on top of the wall and put it on the other side. That isn't very hard. Third, they may not need the ladder on the other side. How tall is this wall? They may only need the ladder to get to the top, hang their bodies over the top and drop a few feet. For a young man in his teens or twenties, that's not a big deal. Suppose the wall is 10 feet tall. I'm about 6 feet tall. If I climbed on top, hung by my hands, my feet would be less than 2 feet off the ground on the other side. As aa42 year old, my ankles might feel it more than they would have 20 years ago, but I wouldn't get injured. The point is that even if these aren't the brightest people in the world, just a little resourcefulness is enough to figure this out.
Obviously if there's an armed guard who's going to blow the dude's head off if he gets to the other side, that changes the dynamic quite a bit.
Washington Times-2017:
In Yuma, a city of nearly 100,000 people, that’s meant a coordinated approach.
A triple layer of fence has been built near the official port of entry, with one massive bollard-style barrier up along the border, another set back with a high-speed dirt road running in the middle, and a third chain-link fence just behind them.
More agents have also been sent to patrol the area. And both Homeland Security and the Justice Department began to push for stiffer penalties for those caught crossing the border, including charging some of them with crimes, rather than the previous practice of returning them to Mexico or releasing them into the U.S. and hoping they returned for deportation.
That’s known as the Criminal Consequence Initiative, and as many as one-third of all illegal immigrants caught in the Yuma Sector face criminal prosecutions, with the chance of doing jail time, for illegal entry.
Before those policies were put into place, illegal immigration along the 126 miles of the Yuma Sector was rampant, peaking in 2006 with 138,438 migrants nabbed by the Border Patrol, or 12 percent of the total in the Southwest.
Just a year later, the number dropped to 37,992, and by 2008, when the fencing in Yuma had been finished, the number was just 8,363, or just 1 percent of the total.
In 2016 the number was more than 14,000, or about 3 percent of the southwestern border total.
The figure is projected to drop again this year thanks to a major dip since Mr. Trump took office. In April just 244 illegal immigrants were caught across the entire Yuma Sector. The number for July has risen to 893 but was still well below the 2,000-per-month number Mr. Obama turned over to Mr. Trump.
“I would have to give credit to the layered approach,” said Jessica Vaughan, policy studies director at the Center for Immigration Studies. “Different things work with different types of crossers, and we have to try to stop them all.”
In Yuma, a city of nearly 100,000 people, that’s meant a coordinated approach.
A triple layer of fence has been built near the official port of entry, with one massive bollard-style barrier up along the border, another set back with a high-speed dirt road running in the middle, and a third chain-link fence just behind them.
More agents have also been sent to patrol the area. And both Homeland Security and the Justice Department began to push for stiffer penalties for those caught crossing the border, including charging some of them with crimes, rather than the previous practice of returning them to Mexico or releasing them into the U.S. and hoping they returned for deportation.
That’s known as the Criminal Consequence Initiative, and as many as one-third of all illegal immigrants caught in the Yuma Sector face criminal prosecutions, with the chance of doing jail time, for illegal entry.
Before those policies were put into place, illegal immigration along the 126 miles of the Yuma Sector was rampant, peaking in 2006 with 138,438 migrants nabbed by the Border Patrol, or 12 percent of the total in the Southwest.
Just a year later, the number dropped to 37,992, and by 2008, when the fencing in Yuma had been finished, the number was just 8,363, or just 1 percent of the total.
In 2016 the number was more than 14,000, or about 3 percent of the southwestern border total.
The figure is projected to drop again this year thanks to a major dip since Mr. Trump took office. In April just 244 illegal immigrants were caught across the entire Yuma Sector. The number for July has risen to 893 but was still well below the 2,000-per-month number Mr. Obama turned over to Mr. Trump.
“I would have to give credit to the layered approach,” said Jessica Vaughan, policy studies director at the Center for Immigration Studies. “Different things work with different types of crossers, and we have to try to stop them all.”
But ia??
Barriers/ walls don't work here in America.
"“I would have to give credit to the layered approach,” said Jessica Vaughan, policy studies director at the Center for Immigration Studies. “Different things work with different types of crossers, and we have to try to stop them all.”
I do not think there is a Wall/Barrier supporter who do not agree with that
Yet Dems continue to try to deflect what is said.
Barriers/ walls don't work here in America.
"“I would have to give credit to the layered approach,” said Jessica Vaughan, policy studies director at the Center for Immigration Studies. “Different things work with different types of crossers, and we have to try to stop them all.”
I do not think there is a Wall/Barrier supporter who do not agree with that
Yet Dems continue to try to deflect what is said.
Wall supporters would do better if they would focus on and talk about those "different things." Shouting "build a wall!" like a band of drunk pirates doesn't suggest careful consideration or thought.
1)The Visa overstay people are not the problem. They're not committing crimes nor are they usually welfare receipts. The worst they are doing is taking an American's job. I'm not overly concerned about them. We can take care of this problem later.
2) We have 20,000 border agents. Backed up by the military which we should use we have plenty of eyes. Yes, some will sneak though but not many. If we can keep a 80-90% success rate the wall is worth it.
3) Deez, an 8 foot ladder isn't going to sneak over a 21' foot wall.
Even the 15' telescoping ladder there won't do it and it costs over $300.
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Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
This is significant. The Atlantic is calling for an Impeachment of Trump. While waiting for the outcome of Mueller's investigation I've stated previously that I'm not in favor of impeachment because it would literally tear the country apart. My preference would be to vote him out in the next election. With that said, some of the arguments are cogent.
No, this is utter ********. Look at their reasoning below. Obama was worse than Trump under this premise:
“In The Atlantic piece, which is printed with the headline “The Case for Impeachment,” Appelbaum writes that Trump has “repeatedly trampled” on the Constitution, with his policies, approaches to the investigations that surround his administration and attacks on political opponents. “
Don't forget about the crack heads that say a wall doesn't help.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I guess I don't understand this perspective. I am all for border security and rule of law types of things. But I disagree with several of the statements.
First, why do we have to wait to do something very important to removing incentive to stay until other things are done? Sure, it is better to remove more incentive than less.
Second, the hospitals need to continue to concentrate on delivering care to people. The last thing they need to worry about is looking into people's backgrounds and playing bad cop. I think we can see this issue is an issue of common human decency. A kid with a broken leg needs a cast. It is kind of awful to turn away a kid from a hospital with a broken leg. I understand illegals can't always cover their own healthcare costs and that causes other problems. I would rather focus on keeping illegals from receiving government welfare. If they can't a job and can't live off of welfare, they will go back to the home country.
Third, there is a bigger issue with sanctuary cities than just immigration. There is something the founders of the US wrote about as a way for people to resist bad law and bad government. It is called 'nullification'. I think it is much more important to maintain the use of and agree with the idea of nullification, even when it is used in a way that I believe incorrect, than to remove that possibility because it was misused with respect to illegal immigrants. Nullification is simply the action of states, cities, or even neighborhoods to refuse to enforce or carry out any law they decided was unconstitutional or just plain bad. It would be the last line of defense if the 3 Federal branches let some bad law come about. It is usually applied to the state-federal relationship. But could be applied more broadly in a reasonable manner. It gives more power to the people and less to centralized power. If San Francisco wants to harbor illegals. I say let them. It will be to their detriment. Or it won't and we will all learn a bit more about the world.
You are saying that it is okay for the government to punish employers for employing (helping in most cases) illegals while simultaneously stating that it is okay for the government to help illegals. Hypocrisy at its finest.
See my argument above. Also, you are not considering the increased cost of healthcare being foisted upon legal citizens by free healthcare for illegals. Where is your common human decency for those legal citizens that have trouble affording healthcare?
Again, you are asking to punish employers for hiring illegals while letting government ignore laws to help illegals stay in the country.
Why punish employers that help illegals, and ignore government actions that help illegals?
This is true, but that only has a bearing on the rights of those acted against. It doesn't have a bearing on their effectiveness. Gun control would be a stupid thing, even if we didn't have a right to bear arms.
LongestHorn
2,500+ Posts
Do you consider 9/11 to have been a crime? It was a terrorist attack, but it was also 3,000+ murders, massive destruction of property, etc. Five of the 9/11 hijackers were visa overstayers. Yeah, they're a problem, and they definitely do commit crimes. Keep in mind that a "visa" isn't just a work visa or even a student visa. It can be a tourist visa much like what you'd have to get to travel from the US to Russia. It's a process, but they aren't that hard to get. That's why a massive number of illegal immigrants in the US didn't cross illegally.
About double that many guarded the East German border. It was much less than half the length of the US-Mexico border, and the guards were armed like troops, not cops and had real authority. They didn't have to apprehend people. They could just blow them away. 20,000 isn't that many for the US-Mexico border.
3) Deez, an 8 foot ladder isn't going to sneak over a 21' foot wall.
LOL. How tall is this wall? It was 8-10 feet just a few minutes ago.
1) According to stats Visa overstayers commit less crime than citizens. You know why? They're given a solid background check before coming here. They weren't criminals before they came here which means they're not likely to be criminals while they're here. Of course there will be exceptions to the rule. The 9/11 situation has more to due with radical Islam than it has with Visa overstayers. I didn't say we need to completely ignore the overstayers, it's just the border situation is more important.
2) 20,000 is plenty when backed with the armed services. East German soldiers didn't have the tech to work with what we have now. We don't need as many people as they did.
3) Who said it was 8'-10' feet? We're talking 18-30' high and 6' deep in most places. Check out the prototypes. President Trump's border wall prototypes are complete. Now what?
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I agree that the border problem is bigger than visa overstays in terms of numbers (though not by a lot) and criminality. However, the proposed solution (or certainly the solution that is dominating the discussion and the issue) is completely irrelevant to almost half of the illegal immigrants in the US. That isn't smart. What is the proposed solution to the visa overstay problem? What is the proposed solution to the crooked employer problem, which would have a major impact on both visa overstays and border crossers?
The East German military was pretty high tech in its day. However, the level of force it could deploy was much greater. For starters, it had minefields, so plenty of would-be crossers would have a leg blown off. Furthermore, guards had the order to shoot to kill anyone who tried to cross illegally. That simplifies things. The guard can blow the guy away and clean up the corpse when it's convenient.
When a border patrol officer catches an illegal immigrant, he has to take him into custody like cop. That takes a hell of a lot more time, effort, and manpower than just firing a gun. And of course, since the risk of death is a lot lower on the US-Mexican, far more are willing to try to cross, so far more confrontations to deal with.
Phil said 8 to 10 feet. My mistake. Let's go with the 18-30 feet scenario. That would certainly be very hard for one guy with no help to climb. Now what happens if the guy trying to cross has access to someone on the other side of the wall with a 35 - 60 foot rope?
We could make it work. We could plant landmines, put another several thousand border patrol officers on the border, and give the officers shoot to kill orders. That would end the problem (and look terrible, cost a fortune, and enrage property owners).
Or we could deprioritize the wall, have mandatory e-verify, and create the private civil action I proposed a while back, and we'd virtually eliminate the illegal immigrant population from the US by Valentine's Day.
Again, you’re ignoring government assistance which 66% of non-citizens (legal and illegal) access. Why does the govt punish employers for dealing with illegals while simultaneously giving them handouts?
If we put a border patrol agent every half mile on the southern border we would only need 3,800 agents.
If we put a border patrol agent every half mile on the southern border we would only need 3,800 agents.
LongestHorn
2,500+ Posts
President Trump Directed His Attorney Michael Cohen To Lie To Congress About The Moscow Tower Project
President Donald Trump directed his longtime attorney Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow, according to two federal law enforcement officials involved in an investigation of the matter.
The special counsel’s office learned about Trump’s directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump Organization and internal company emails, text messages, and a cache of other documents. Cohen then acknowledged those instructions during his interviews with that office.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...scow-tower-mueller-investigation?ref=hpsplash
President Donald Trump directed his longtime attorney Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow, according to two federal law enforcement officials involved in an investigation of the matter.
The special counsel’s office learned about Trump’s directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump Organization and internal company emails, text messages, and a cache of other documents. Cohen then acknowledged those instructions during his interviews with that office.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...scow-tower-mueller-investigation?ref=hpsplash
I35
5,000+ Posts
Longest Horn, don’t get too excited yet. We’ve been down this road a thousand times the first two years of Trumps presidency. What they report and when the dust settles always seems to not be accurate. The media never gets it either. They say something and puts it on their front page then later either won’t report their error or they put out a redaction on the back pages in small print. If they are called on it they will blame their source. They wonder why they are called fake news.
I35
5,000+ Posts
I don’t know why we can’t do everything possible to stop this problem we have.
1) build the wall 30 ft high from the bottom of Texas to the ocean of California. The cost would be a fraction of what our government waste. I like the Ted Cruz idea of using ail Chopo’s money. Plus our trade agreement with Mexico would pay for it, or most of it. They claim it would be too much or hard to build it everywhere That’s BS. The Great Wall of China puts that notion to rest.
2). Stop incentivizing them to come here by giving them government handouts
3) enforce the law with the sanctuary cities. Defund then completely. There’s no negotiation for this. The the state official choose to break the law the its in then if their state loosing funding. Throw down the hammer.
4). Go after employers who hire illegals.
5). Use drones randomly to look for tunnels being built
This has to be a priority. No more playing games with our safety. Shut down the drug and human trafficking coming across the boarder. Also do an investigation to see if there are officials that are taking payoffs from the cartel or the Mexican government. If found then set an example of life in prison no matter who it is if proven. Because blocking the building of borders has caused way too many American lives.
LongestHorn
2,500+ Posts
Naturally.
I believe I said the drop was 8-10 feet, not the wall. As you pointed out, if a 6 ft man hangs over the side, then the drop to the ground is less than the total height of the wall. The height varies over the different parts of the wall or fence we already have, I was just trying to be conservative.
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The Secure Fencing Act 2006
Provisions
In 2006, at the time it was passed, George W. Bush's White House touted the fence as "an important step toward immigration reform."[1] The White House Office of the Press Secretary stated that the Act "Authorizes the construction of hundreds of miles of additional fencing along our Southern border; Authorizes more vehicle barriers, checkpoints, and lighting to help prevent people from entering our country illegally; Authorizes the Department of Homeland Security to increase the use of advanced technology like cameras, satellites, and unmanned aerial vehicles to reinforce our infrastructure at the border."[1]
Check the names in the Senate Vote:
U.S. Senate: U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 2nd Session
Provisions
In 2006, at the time it was passed, George W. Bush's White House touted the fence as "an important step toward immigration reform."[1] The White House Office of the Press Secretary stated that the Act "Authorizes the construction of hundreds of miles of additional fencing along our Southern border; Authorizes more vehicle barriers, checkpoints, and lighting to help prevent people from entering our country illegally; Authorizes the Department of Homeland Security to increase the use of advanced technology like cameras, satellites, and unmanned aerial vehicles to reinforce our infrastructure at the border."[1]
Check the names in the Senate Vote:
U.S. Senate: U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 2nd Session
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