Texas at Kansas May 3-5

[blonthang]

To me, this hire is similar to Charlie Strong and Shaka Smart. Did Coach Pierce make it to the CWS only because of Augie's players? It's starting to smell like that.

Pierce learned his coaching under Graham at Rice when they took over the state of Texas as the best program, passing UT for a while, winning the CWS.

He then went on as HC at Sam Houston for 3 years, getting the Bearkats into a regional every year.

Then HC at Tulane for 2 years, getting them into a regional both years (uh, see a trend?).

Then Texas, the two previous years under Augie Texas went 30-27 (11-13, 5th conf. , regional = 2 and Q) and 25-32 (10-14, 7th conf., no regional invite) --- not dumping on Augie but if he left a good squad with Pierce to pick up on the record doesn't reflect it.

And in Pierce's first two years he went 39-24 (11-12, 6th conf., regional invite lost in final game 2-1, close to making a Super), then last year 42-23 (17-7 1st conf, regional host - won, super regional - won, CWS appearance).

Pierce has proven himself at 3 programs in order --- Strong and Smart don't compare by any metric, particularly with regard to coaching results in Austin.

 

[SabreHorn]

A major factor in giving Pierce consideration was the belief that he was responsible for recognizing and recruiting the talent at Rice.

 

[FWHORN]

Pierce is a good coach, now whether or not he can be a great coach is going to be dependent on how he gets this team to recover next year from this complete collapse. There is no comparison to Strong or Smart and its unfortunate people use those two in same conversation as Pierce. Sometimes bad years happen and that is what this year was, the mark of a good coach is how you come back from the bad years.

 

[ViperHorn]

Pierce is a good coach, now whether or not he can be a great coach is going to be dependent on how he gets this team to recover next year from this complete collapse. There is no comparison to Strong or Smart and its unfortunate people use those two in same conversation as Pierce. Sometimes bad years happen and that is what this year was, the mark of a good coach is how you come back from the bad years.

Agree if "give up" = complete collapse". The team gave up on the coaches when the catcher was injured which is different from the lack of talent. Next year (recruiting and season) will be critical for Pierce.

 

[Run Pincher]

Even DKR followed 10-2 with 5-5-1. I'm willing to give Pierce a Mulligan for this year with all the issues and youth. Let's wait and see what happens next year but he's certainly not Strong or Smart.

 

[SabreHorn]

Dion,

Can we please ban the words "youth" and "young" from HornFans? seem to remember being carried to Omaha by a freshman pitcher in 1984.

 

[Texanne]

Dion,

Can we please ban the words "youth" and "young" from HornFans? seem to remember being carried to Omaha by a freshman pitcher in 1984.

And I remember a freshman pitcher who was absolute nails out of the bullpen in the 2002 CWS, earning MVP honors, IIRC.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

The CWS has been played continuously since 1947. The CWS consists of the 8 teams that win their regional play --- so equivalent to basketball's Elite Eight and football's previous traditional New Year's Day bowls of Rose, Sugar, Orange, and Cotton (8 teams). And with the 3rd and 4th championships (1949, 1950), Texas was there from the start, and has continued with titles in the 70s (1975), 80s (1983), the 00s (2002, 2005), titles under coaching of only 3 coaches, Bibb, Gus, and Augie. BUT, under 3 different coaches over a span of 7 decades.

Last year was the 72nd year of the CWS. Texas returned to CWS play last year --- it's 36th year --- on average Texas baseball has been an "Elite Eight" or "New Year's Day bowl" team EVERY OTHER YEAR for 72 years. No one comes close --- USC is better because of Dedeaux's amazing run of titles, but take him out, and other numbers as noted above, appearances, CWS games won, etc., Texas outpaces every other program.

To put Texas' baseball success in context with the other 2 of the Big 3 college sports, to restate, Texas baseball has been on average at worst every other year an "Elite Eight" or "New Year's Day Bowl Game" team over the 72 years of the championship history of the sport. I don't think in football Notre Dame, Alabama, Michigan, tOSU, USC or OU can claim that they have averaged every other year making a "New Year's Day Bowl Game", nor can UK, KU, UNC, or UCLA claim to have been an "Elite Eight" team on average every other year.

College baseball only started getting TV coverage in the past 10 years or so IIRC, as compared to football, so support has been mostly with butts in the stands.

To cover the "rabid fan base" criteria we ranked 5th in attendance last year with 210,895. To give you an idea of how that looks, Vanderbilt was #20 at 99,000....not even in the same ballpark. The #2 Big XII school was TCU at 137,000....again, not really close.

I would say we travel/follow the team better than almost any team anywhere. Obviously we have a huge football following, but I would suggest Texas baseball is an all time elite program with a few others.

 

[Phil Elliott]

Can we please ban the words "youth" and "young" from HornFans? seem to remember being carried to Omaha by a freshman pitcher in 1984.

And I remember a freshman pitcher who was absolute nails out of the bullpen in the 2002 CWS, earning MVP honors, IIRC.

If you hold every freshman pitcher to that standard, you are going to be disappointed, A LOT. Those guys were the exception, not the rule.

 

[SabreHorn]

Those guys were the exception, not the rule.

No doubt about that, but there are multiple examples of "young" players stepping up through the years.

While his actions his last few years and his refusal to do what he was told to protect the program destroyed our friendship, Gus was great for the the program, and had an unbelievable ability to watch a kid in practice and enter a pine-rider as a starter in specific situations. Whenever asked why, it was always the same, "gut feel" or "thought he was good for this situation".

Only twice I remember his gut feel was wrong

1) Intention walk putting the tying run on first to pitch to "the black kid"*

2) Pitching Swindell on short rest leaving no one for Sunday.

* Reggie Jackson jacked a walkoff

 

[zuckercanyon]

Pierce learned his coaching under Graham at Rice when they took over the state of Texas as the best program, passing UT for a while, winning the CWS.

He then went on as HC at Sam Houston for 3 years, getting the Bearkats into a regional every year.

Then HC at Tulane for 2 years, getting them into a regional both years (uh, see a trend?).

Then Texas, the two previous years under Augie Texas went 30-27 (11-13, 5th conf. , regional = 2 and Q) and 25-32 (10-14, 7th conf., no regional invite) --- not dumping on Augie but if he left a good squad with Pierce to pick up on the record doesn't reflect it.

And in Pierce's first two years he went 39-24 (11-12, 6th conf., regional invite lost in final game 2-1, close to making a Super), then last year 42-23 (17-7 1st conf, regional host - won, super regional - won, CWS appearance).

Pierce has proven himself at 3 programs in order --- Strong and Smart don't compare by any metric, particularly with regard to coaching results in Austin.

So, what I'm getting from this post is that Pierce takes most of his teams to the college baseball playoffs....annnddd he was "the reason" that Rice won the CWS that one year. Annnnddd that got him a job at Sam Houston State.......Annnndd that got him a job at Tulane......Power houses of college baseball...I really hope I'm way off base/wrong/fos and proven wrong as soon as next year....but I don't think I am.....

 

[Phil Elliott]

He played and coached HS baseball in Houston. He knows the game.

 

[zuckercanyon]

He played and coached HS baseball in Houston. He knows the game.

I would guess that there's at least 100 coaches in Texas that could say this. I'll offer that I know zero about coaching baseball. It has squat to do with wins and losses. There's all kinds of coaches at lesser universities that lose more than they win, and some coach with CWS titles will say "that guy knows the game more than I do". Soooo which coach do you want?

 

[blonthang]

Well zucker you're wrong about one thing --- I didn't state or suggest that Pierce was the reason that Rice won the CWS. My noting that Pierce started out coaching college as an assistant learning from Graham who directed Rice to overtaking UT as the premiere college program in Texas for a while, was only to note that he learned from a championship caliber coach.

I know the the facts when presented go contrary to the strident position you've taken, that PIerce's first 2 years at UT are really due to coaching Augie's guys (which I showed even Augie couldn't do that well with his last 2 years with them), but jumping to asserting I posted something I didn't doesn't help your argument at all.

You are entitled to your opinion, and it's worth considering and talking about.

But you are not entitled to misstating what I posted.

Hook 'em.

 

[zuckercanyon]

Well zucker you're wrong about one thing --- I didn't state or suggest that Pierce was the reason that Rice won the CWS. My noting that Pierce started out coaching college as an assistant learning from Graham who directed Rice to overtaking UT as the premiere college program in Texas for a while, was only to note that he learned from a championship caliber coach.

I know the the facts when presented go contrary to the strident position you've taken, that PIerce's first 2 years at UT are really due to coaching Augie's guys (which I showed even Augie couldn't do that well with his last 2 years with them), but jumping to asserting I posted something I didn't doesn't help your argument at all.

You are entitled to your opinion, and it's worth considering and talking about.

But you are not entitled to misstating what I posted.

Hook 'em.

not my intention and my apologies for it even looking like that. just don't think Pierce is the answer. Will put it this way....there's many walks of life/jobs that there are people attempting to reach the pinnacle of those fields and they've "checked all the boxes". Education, associations, etc. But they don't have "it". Coaches and players all have knowledge of the sport, have been around success, etc etc. However, when it comes down to it, the "it" players seem to defy logic, gravity, what-would-so-and-so have done, what was the "correct" thing to do, etc. I heard many people talk about Vince Young this way...."doesn't really throw correctly", "too skinny (early on)" "doesn't get it". I know this is a baseball thread but when he was allowed to "do what feels right", Texas went to the promised land. The coaches that go to the CWS and win more than lose aren't necessarily the guys who "know all the high school baseball coaches" or "are the guys who meet all the criteria", but the ones who just know what everyone else is struggling to know. Therefore, I look to who knows how to win, period. Maybe Texas has PR issues, but if I had Red McCombs notoriety and money I would've been fuming publicly 3 years ago. There had to be better coaches with better success that Texas could have opened the checkbook for. Heck we went and got Augie when it was thought that Gus was fading.....I know I come on strong and don't want to insult anyone that is a Pierce supporter, but 25-25 in your third season because of youth/catcher/shortstop on a scooter excuses really sounds like the person who "really knows what he's doing in the state of Texas when it comes to baseball", apparently hasn't amassed a lot of depth/skill in his 3rd season. We just got swept in OUR sport by a basketball school. If this would've been football there would be cries for running him out on a rail and hangings in effigy. Someone joked earlier that we're going for the #1 draft pick.......should someone make sure that the players/coaches don't think that's true?

 

[Creek]

College baseball changed when mamas didn't want their babies to grow up to be football players. Now we have 200 teams that can beat you on any given night.
A lot more now is asked from the coaches. I assume Texas State and Baylor and New Mexico State didn't out recruit us by getting better hitters. The coach just made them better when they got there.
Hitting is something you can fix as a coach. Pitching improvement is tougher.
I don't remember us ever being dead last In the conference in all my memory btw.

 

[zuckercanyon]

College baseball changed when mamas didn't want their babies to grow up to be football players. Now we have 200 teams that can beat you on any given night.
A lot more now is asked from the coaches. I assume Texas State and Baylor and New Mexico State didn't out recruit us by getting better hitters. The coach just made them better when they got there.
Hitting is something you can fix as a coach. Pitching improvement is tougher.
I don't remember us ever being dead last In the conference in all my memory btw.

Maybe anyone can beat you on a Tuesday night, but per decade, the same number of different teams have been going to the CWS (28-30 teams per decade), but it's generally power 5 schools winning those titles. Somehow, for example, Florida has been going almost every year and finally won it in 2017. Coastal Carolina is an aberration. There's no excuse for Texas to be mediocre. Is Florida's pipeline better than Texas'? Nah. I think every once in a while Texas strives for mediocrity. This is one of those times, unfortunately for a storied baseball program.

 

[blonthang]

zuckerc, we cool,

Hook 'em

 

[Phil Elliott]

I think you are overreacting to 1/2 of a season that went bad. You act like no other elite team except Texas ever had a bad run. You also need to remember we were hardly Omaha caliber the last several years before Pierce took over. To act like he took over this juggernaut and has run it into the ground is just not factual.

 

[blonthang]

Phil,

The rest of the country understands:

Baseball America College Coach of the Year - Wikipedia

2018 David Pierce Texas

 

[zuckercanyon]

Phil,

The rest of the country understands:

Baseball America College Coach of the Year - Wikipedia

2018 David Pierce Texas

That’s nice. Isn’t there some kind of CWS standard at Texas that no one knows where any of the CWS runner up trophy’s are? Can he please right the ship and go to Omaha and win games? I know I know I just don’t get it. So this season is obviously lost. How many coaching awards and ncaa regionals are you going to allow him before his meh-ness is acknowledged? Augie had seasons like this but obviously augie had a pretty good track record. I’ll eat crow gladly if next season or the season after Texas is back in Omaha but I would not bet on it.

 

[blonthang]

How many coaching awards and ncaa regionals are you going to allow him before his meh-ness is acknowledged? Augie had seasons like this but obviously augie had a pretty good track record.

I'll agree to the "Augie" standard.

Augie's first 6 years at Texas:

29-22 -- no regional
23-32-1 -- no regional
36-26 -- regional (0-2)
46-21 -- CWS (0-2)
36-26 -- regional (2-2)
57-15 -- CWS Champions

Pierce's first 3 years at Texas:
39-24 -- regional (2-2)
42-23 -- CWS (0-2)
25-25... --- incl.

In comparison to Gus, well he just had his own standard, his first 8 years which is what it took him to WIN it all, though he MADE it to the CWS every year of his first 8 save his 4th when he still made a regional:
23-11 --- CWS (1-2)
40-6 --- CWS (2-2)
45-8 --- CWS (2-2)
35-11 --- regional (2-2 , eliminated by double final losses to Texas-Pan Am)
50-9 --- CWS (2-2, in regional 3-0, revenge on Pan Am, this time 2-0 over them in finals)
50-7 --- CWS (2-2)
54-8 --- CWS (2-2)
59-6 --- CWS Champions

It looks like to me just quickly surveying those career starts at UT (through almost 3 seasons), that Gus did the best, Pierce second, and Augie third.

As financial advisors say: "Past performance is no guarantee of future performance" but it's all we have at this point.

So, to your question, I'd give Pierce at least the 6 years it took for Augie to get 1 CWS game win (his 6th season, he also won it all, not just his first UT win in the CWS).

 

[zuckercanyon]

I'll agree to the "Augie" standard.

Augie's first 6 years at Texas:

29-22 -- no regional
23-32-1 -- no regional
36-26 -- regional (0-2)
46-21 -- CWS (0-2)
36-26 -- regional (2-2)
57-15 -- CWS Champions

Pierce's first 3 years at Texas:
39-24 -- regional (2-2)
42-23 -- CWS (0-2)
25-25... --- incl.

In comparison to Gus, well he just had his own standard, his first 8 years which is what it took him to WIN it all, though he MADE it to the CWS every year of his first 8 save his 4th when he still made a regional:
23-11 --- CWS (1-2)
40-6 --- CWS (2-2)
45-8 --- CWS (2-2)
35-11 --- regional (2-2 , eliminated by double final losses to Texas-Pan Am)
50-9 --- CWS (2-2, in regional 3-0, revenge on Pan Am, this time 2-0 over them in finals)
50-7 --- CWS (2-2)
54-8 --- CWS (2-2)
59-6 --- CWS Champions

It looks like to me just quickly surveying those career starts at UT (through almost 3 seasons), that Gus did the best, Pierce second, and Augie third.

As financial advisors say: "Past performance is no guarantee of future performance" but it's all we have at this point.

So, to your question, I'd give Pierce at least the 6 years it took for Augie to get 1 CWS game win (his 6th season, he also won it all, not just his first UT win in the CWS).

Augie had three rings before he got to Texas, so not really apples to apples. Everyone knew his credentials because he could show it on three fingers. I didn’t like how he cleaned house but he was making it his house. You’re giving credit to a guy for being an assistant on a cws champion. Doesn’t necessarily mean hes a great head coach (buddy ryan/Charlie Strong). So in 2022 we’ll revisit and see where Texas stands. I don’t think pierce will be the coach in 2022.