you sure about the political views point?
I’ve seen a reasonably complete collection of “mass shootings” recently ... all registered democrats/voted democrat.
So I’m not sure “all political views” is necessarily correct.
Sutherland Springs Shooting
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you sure about the political views point?
I’ve seen a reasonably complete collection of “mass shootings” recently ... all registered democrats/voted democrat.
So I’m not sure “all political views” is necessarily correct.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
We already qualify them. Try yelling "fire" in a crowded theater some time and report back on how much "freedom of speech" you had.
How 'bout "freedom of religion" when viewed from the lens of discriminating against other?
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Please point me to the list. I've already demonstrated JoeFan's "all POTUS assassins are Democrats" list was BS.
We do? There’s permit for freedom of speech?
Hey guess what ... aggravated murder is against the law, too, but that’s not stopping the wailing for more government interference ... aka infringement.
The fact is ... this is a sellacious topic and those who are eithe r”ok” with big government ... or are scared out of their minds regarding firearms ... support erosion of the 2A. PERIOD.
neither are a good basis for legitimately proposing policy/legislation.
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
I don't get something. If the purpose of the "well regulated militia" is to keep the state in check then there should be no limit on any weapon that I could purchase or create. I should be able to create/purchase any tank or armed drone or '.50 caliber automatic rifle that I want. Otherwise, the gubmit is going to be at a distinct advantage over me. So, we've given away the farm on keeping the man in check with the well regulated militia. Maybe it doesn't mean that much.
We also have plenty of limitations on firearms. Having more shouldn't be too troublesome.
Having a system in place and a good system are not the same thing. Before 9/11, the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc did not coordinate well. They probably still do not coordinate 100% effectively and not all terroism has been stopped, but they coordinate much better than they used to coordinate. The current system should be reviewed and recommendations for improvements should be followed. In the 21st century, it is certainly possible to have a much much more effective background search system. If I, as a real estate attorney, can pull most recorded real estate documents in this state up online from even small county courthouses, we can definitely set up a better background check system. It will not be 100% perfect, but it can be way better.
ShAArk92, our other amendments are often eroded pretty badly. OUBubba hits on what the second amendment really means. It really stands for that anyone should be able to have access to the weapons a common foot soldier would have (machine guns, grenades) so that citizens can form a militia if needed. The purposes of the second amendment came to fruition in the Civil War as the southern states were able to oganize an army against a government they viewed (rightly or wrongly) as tryanical. Nowadays, very few people think everyone should have access to machine guns and grenades so Scalia made up a right to self defense in order to change the second amendment to fit what people want today. I believe we should have a second amendment and responsible citizens should have access to firearms. I do think we can restrict or try better to restrict irresponsible citizens from accessing or easily accessing firearms including people convicted of violent crime or a felony and the mentally ill. Buying a car is a pain, but every responsible person can get one. Gun buying can be the same way if it helps reduce the amount of irresponsible buyers.
Also, off the top of my head, I doubt Dylan Roof was a democrat. The political affiliations have not been relevant.
I did read an interesting article that mass shooters are strongly linked to domestic abuse. It does appear a psychological profile is emerging after all. I hope the FBI will be able to do something with this work.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...often-have-domestic-violence-trait/846735001/
^ here is the article.
Last edited:
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Your freedom to own any gun you choose, as many as possible and with as much ammunition as you desire is beginning to infringe on the most basic right to our collective pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
Nope. But your effort to react emotionally is noted.
That infringement comes from other people ... not the citizens rights which restrict the government.
Lots of members who will vote. That's all you had to say.
The NRA is a relative piker in terms of the money they spend on politicians because they don't have to spend it. They represent a HUGE politically active swath of the American people, and every politician knows it. The only political types who speak out against are Libs who are in extremely protected left wing districts.
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
So to be clear... you're stating that the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness trumps the right to purchase something? I just want to make sure that's on record.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Non sequitur logic. Me owning a tank and a missile defense system doesn't affect Seattle Huskers freedom in the slightest. The fact of ownership doesn't affect anyone. Now, if I choose to use them immorally then it affects many people. But as long as they sit in a garage, it's my business only.
Horns11
10,000+ Posts
The NRA's major issue is that single-issue voting in such a large block requires no nuance. 5MM members times $35/year = $175MM in dues alone (not including fundraising or $1,000/plate Congressional dinners) to spend on one word: No. Anything regarding potential gun control solutions? Doesn't matter how effective it could be in saving a modicum of life. No. Background checks? No. Ammo controls? No. There's literally no gray area like social security reform or tax reform or health care reform. It's just "No."
I know many on this board hate "The West (Left) Wing" for it's sanctimony, but the one episode with the gay Republican congressman got it right. If everyone who wanted gun control just paid dues and called for a platform change, it'd probably get done.
I know many on this board hate "The West (Left) Wing" for it's sanctimony, but the one episode with the gay Republican congressman got it right. If everyone who wanted gun control just paid dues and called for a platform change, it'd probably get done.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Yet you aren't allowed to have your personal missile defense system or an operational tank. We, as a society have said the risk to others safety needs to outweigh the individuals rights. In turn, we more heavily regulate certain rights. We do the same for mass quantities of psuedoephedine [sp?] and ammonium nitrate (after OKC bombing). I'd argue that we should return assault weapons to that same more heavily regulated category.
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
It's no different from the teacher's union or the Sierra Club or any other lobbying group. Their goal as you say is to protect their members' interest. That means they're not interested in ceding ground in any way that's going to put those interests at risk. The only compromise anyone in those groups is willing to make is one which brings them closer to their end goal. That's why any group seeking change is at an advantage, and why their opposition always seems so intransigent. Any suggestion to ban any aspect of gun rights is seen as a step away from the central goal of protecting gun rights, and since that step is not the end goal for the advocacy group, everyone knows that this compromise will then have to be followed by another compromise next year, and then another, and then another.
As a result, rational and reasonable steps will always be resisted in that context. Because everyone knows that the anti-gun lobby is not going to be satisfied, and they'll have to give something else up in the next round. To its credit, I think I did see that the NRA came out supporting bans on bumper stocks. So it's not as if they're saying "no" on every single thing. But they're always going to say no on any issue that they see as unrelated to the problem of mass shootings.
Define assault weapon
We’ve been down this road. Unless the law is going to specify a brand/model ... the definition will catch more firearms ... which is not the intent, RIGHT????
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Which always eventually gets us back to the SCOTUS. This was the big risk the Never Trump crowd was always willing to take.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
I'll let people smarter than me define it but given variants of AR-15 seem to be the most common instrument of mass killings we should have a starting place.
So common use = assault weapon?
I’m gonna feed the troll here a little bit ...
The AR is also the favorite firearm of choice/availability for eradication of feral hogs. So ... do you suppose to certificate hog hunters with FBI background checks/et al ... just to defend their property from these invaders?
Of course, I expect ... fully ... you’ll address the language and processes of hawg hunting application to readiness of the citizenry to topple tyranny (though it’s clear to me, too, our topple willingness has faded tremendously and we are literally begging the Fed to provide A-Z ... and from cradle to grave. Pitiful what we’ve become.)
... you’ll address the language I’ve used rather than an actual understanding of what your proposals will actually do.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Here is a listing of mass killings in which the AR15 (or variant) was used since the assault weapons ban put most of these guns back on the market in 2004.
- Oct. 7, 2007: Tyler Peterson, 20, used an AR-15 to kill six and injure one at an apartment in Crandon, Wis., before killing himself.
- June 20, 2012: James Eagan Holmes, 24, used an AR-15-style .223-caliber Smith and Wesson rifle with a 100-round magazine, a 12-gauge Remington shotgun and two .40-caliber Glock semi-automatic pistols to kill 12 and injure 58 at a movie theater in Aurora, Colo.
- Dec. 14, 2012: Adam Lanza, 20, used an AR-15-style rifle, a .223-caliber Bushmaster, to kill 27 people — his mother, 20 students and six teachers — in Newtown, Conn., before killing himself.
- June 7, 2013: John Zawahri, 23, used an AR-15-style .223-caliber rifle and a .44-caliber Remington revolver to kill five and injure three at a home in Santa Monica, Calif., before he was killed.
- March 19, 2015: Justin Fowler, 24, used an AR-15 to kill one and injure two on a street in Little Water, N.M., before he was killed.
- May 31, 2015: Jeffrey Scott Pitts, 36, used an AR-15 and .45-caliber handgun to kill two and injure two at a store in Conyers, Ga., before he was killed.
- Oct. 31, 2015: Noah Jacob Harpham, 33, used an AR-15, a .357-caliber revolver and a 9mm semi-automatic pistol to kill three on a street in Colorado Springs, Colo., before he was killed.
- Dec. 2, 2015: Syed Rizwyan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, 28 and 27, used two AR-15-style, .223-caliber Remington rifles and two 9 mm handguns to kill 14 and injure 21 at his workplace in San Bernardino, Calif., before they were killed.
- June 12, 2016: Omar Mateen, 29, used an AR-15 style rifle (a Sig Sauer MCX), and a 9mm Glock semi-automatic pistol to kill 49 people and injure 50 at an Orlando nightclub before he was killed.
- Oct. 1, 2017: Stephen Paddock, 64, used a stockpile of guns including an AR-15 to kill 58 people and injure hundreds at a music festival in Las Vegas before he killed himself.
- Nov. 5, 2017: Devin Kelley, 26, used an AR-15 style Ruger rifle to kill at least 26 people at a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, before he was killed.
Yes ... less than a dozen incidences of criminal behavior by a person with a gun ... when there are dozens of uses every day by law-abiding persons with the same gun ... uses where by this firearm’s adaptability, cartridge, and capability make it the PERFECT choice for feral hogs.
... and ... nevermind the last one in your list ... another AR was used to stop the attack(s) (evidently he intended to hit another church)
So ... cops are necessary and I support ‘em in their job. Being my body guard and/or the body guard of my friends/family ... isn’t part of their job description.
Be ready.
or ... choose to benefit from those who are.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Are there no other options for killing feral hogs? Sport shooting or the other uses you site?
There doesn’t need to be.
But ... since I started feeding this troll ... probably ... but they’d have the very same characteristics as the AR without the AR designation (btw, are you aware of what AR abbreviates???)
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Yes, I'm aware of what AR stands for and held an "expert" marksmanship badge with its forebearer, the M16 when I was in the Army. I also recognize there are other guns with some of the same characteristics that should be evaluated under an assault weapons ban. Unlike the previous AW ban, characteristics should be restricted rather than model of weapons.
Thank you for your service. I, too, earned that distinction with the M16 (being “huah” with the armored infantry as an air liaison officer and M9 on my survival vest in the event I needed a “nylon letdown.” (Eject))
I do not use my veteran status to legitimize my philosophy, however.
Since you highlighted yours, however, why do you think/feel/believe you are unqualified to define “assault rifle” as you previously stated
——-
I appreciate the desire to “do something” to minimize/mitigate/mark as ‘history’ criminal behavior ... but I also recognize, as we were rightly told by the left back in the 80s during Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority work ... “YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE MORALITY” ... which I would also add ... BEHAVIOR... because morality without behavior is just a bunch of hot air.
The best we can do and still honor the tenets of our founding is ... be ready. I said it before, but evidently it’s not being taken seriously. There is risk in participating in freedom; risk of offense. Risk of illness, risk of injury ... and risk of death. We do not live in a vacuum but we must be vigilant against efforts to surrender the rights we have declared for the last 241 years and have had emblazoned in our Founding ...
It’s easy to begin to believe it’s right to start/continue/accelerate such “reasonable limits” on the 2A ... because we’ve never been without it. We are pretty far removed from those who were ... and even any of their following generations who may have known them.
It’s our responsibility, however. Do not forget the words of Ben Franklin when he answered the question “Well, Dr, what do we have; a republic or a monarchy?” “A republic, IF YOU CAN KEEP IT.”
I don’t know if Franklin was referring to the construct of the government, or the determination to keep the Founding tenets intact and active ... I suspect both. I find calls to slap infringement upon the citizen’s right is a tell we are surrendering the republic for what we perceive is greater security in a big central government.
It’s sad. We’ve been handed the greatest nation ever to exist on the planet .. by LOTS of initial and enduring sacrifice. We are bequeathing inter generational slavery with the national debt, loss of freedom to the government, and complete inversion with what is proper and correct in word definition.
May God have mercy on us for our rebellion.
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
Someone who knows something about guns explain to me the difference between an AR15 or other equivalent "scary looking" rifle and a hunting rifle - is it just the magazine capacity?
I’m not the end all authority, to be sure. I cannot quote you ballistics on different loads of a given cartridge...
A TYPICAL Texas deer hunting rifle has a bolt-action. Means, one round, then the shooter has to eject the case and chamber another round from what’s typically a 4 round magazine. Some magazines are detachable, and others are integrated. A Remington 700 is a widely used model. It was maligned with a PR campaign about it’s “safety” mechanism. As if one should rely upon the safety mechanism to “be safe.” Anyway.
Some folks like the semi automatic. They’ll have a scope, possibly a 3x9 variable power ... to allow for shorter range shots as well as longer range (200 - 300 ish)
The biggest difference I see in the AR style and one which is a “hunting rifle” is usually the adaptability. A Remington 700 gets setup and probably stays in that configuration with scope ... forever. An AR with the picatinny rail is made to interchange components for various applications ... pigs to deer to coyotes (flash lites, scopes, grips)
Magazine capacity is ONE feature of the AR which is typically different, but it’s not limited to that. My understanding is the AR is typiclally available in a limited number of calibers ... 5.56 NATO/.223 ... and .308 (I think) ... where a “Deer rifle” could be anything from a .222/25.06 to a 300 win mag (though that guy is not interested in saving venison)
The problem with “targeting” certain characteristics which would MATTER to one who is willing to disregard the 2A and seek to reduce the opportunity for mass killings of people ... it also affects the ability to eradicate hogs which seems will be with us for as long as there are irrational leftists falling at the altar of big Fed.
As BLM has demonstrated ... mobs break out. Self defense may well mean more than a .45 pistol.
It’s a different animal, to be sure, defending one’s self in an urban area vice rural ... but the right of self defense, from a BLM, a single disturbed individual ... or the government pushing a tank through your front door ... the right to keep and bear arms couldn’t be more clear.
This is why I say, the best remedy is ... READINESS. I may get bagged tonight ... but unless someone just gets the jump on me and I have no reasonable opportunity to resist ... that gun will be empty before I take my last breath.
ATTACK! Is the best defense when escape is not an option.
BE READY.
A TYPICAL Texas deer hunting rifle has a bolt-action. Means, one round, then the shooter has to eject the case and chamber another round from what’s typically a 4 round magazine. Some magazines are detachable, and others are integrated. A Remington 700 is a widely used model. It was maligned with a PR campaign about it’s “safety” mechanism. As if one should rely upon the safety mechanism to “be safe.” Anyway.
Some folks like the semi automatic. They’ll have a scope, possibly a 3x9 variable power ... to allow for shorter range shots as well as longer range (200 - 300 ish)
The biggest difference I see in the AR style and one which is a “hunting rifle” is usually the adaptability. A Remington 700 gets setup and probably stays in that configuration with scope ... forever. An AR with the picatinny rail is made to interchange components for various applications ... pigs to deer to coyotes (flash lites, scopes, grips)
Magazine capacity is ONE feature of the AR which is typically different, but it’s not limited to that. My understanding is the AR is typiclally available in a limited number of calibers ... 5.56 NATO/.223 ... and .308 (I think) ... where a “Deer rifle” could be anything from a .222/25.06 to a 300 win mag (though that guy is not interested in saving venison)
The problem with “targeting” certain characteristics which would MATTER to one who is willing to disregard the 2A and seek to reduce the opportunity for mass killings of people ... it also affects the ability to eradicate hogs which seems will be with us for as long as there are irrational leftists falling at the altar of big Fed.
As BLM has demonstrated ... mobs break out. Self defense may well mean more than a .45 pistol.
It’s a different animal, to be sure, defending one’s self in an urban area vice rural ... but the right of self defense, from a BLM, a single disturbed individual ... or the government pushing a tank through your front door ... the right to keep and bear arms couldn’t be more clear.
This is why I say, the best remedy is ... READINESS. I may get bagged tonight ... but unless someone just gets the jump on me and I have no reasonable opportunity to resist ... that gun will be empty before I take my last breath.
ATTACK! Is the best defense when escape is not an option.
BE READY.
LOL ... so they like shooting the gun more than targeting the game.
doesn’t change the reality of the AR’s versatility and applicability.
All it takes is a spin through YouTube searching for hog hunts ... to see the problem first hand ... and why a 5 round “deer rifle” is like shoveling thin manure in a stiff breeze.
doesn’t change the reality of the AR’s versatility and applicability.
All it takes is a spin through YouTube searching for hog hunts ... to see the problem first hand ... and why a 5 round “deer rifle” is like shoveling thin manure in a stiff breeze.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Though I've grown up learning to shoot guns and have experience with them, my experience is dated which is why I don't feel qualified.
I'm not expecting to legislate morality but rather to reduce the carnage from those who chose to make that tragic decision to kill someone.
To me, the risk is acceptable to be diligent to avoid someone with a knife. I'll accept even a hunting rifle at range. It's completely unacceptable that a solitary individual can walk into a crowded area with 15 clips of 30 rounds each and fire 450 rounds in minutes. There is no way our founding fathers could have fathomed that when they emblazoned our right to bear arms and form militias when drafting our founding documents.
I've stated over and over that we've put reasonable limits on many of the rights with my example of the free speech right. What I don't understand it the inference that the 2A somehow is immune from reasonable limits when we already have limits on it. It's as if the NRA and its supporters have picked some irrational point to draw a line in the sand and say "no more" despite the carnage that has ensued.
How does limiting access assault rifles suddenly mean our Republic is lost? When we collectively drew the line at operational tanks, bazookas, rocket launchers and M60's was our Republic lost? Suddenly when bump stalks and high capacity clips come into the marketplace regulating them is a bridge too far?
Sacrifice? Like the 28 people in Sutherland Springs? The nearly 600 people in Las Vegas? The 49 people in Orlando? That's just in the last 18 months. At some point we have to say what is an acceptable sacrifice just so some individual can shoot some feral hogs.
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