Stopping the Spread of Jihad

[iatrogenic]

The ultimate goal of Islam is Sharia. Sharia is mainstream in Islam. To defeat this enemy, we need to fight each incremental step of the ongoing infestation.

1. Religious tolerance cannot be one-sided. We cannot show Muslims deference without requiring reciprocity. When is the last time you saw a Muslim respect any other religion?
   
   
2. Stop the incursion of Islam into our society. Don’t wail about the separation of Church and State when dealing with Christians, and then turn around and defend Muslim acts to show “tolerance”. Stop with the moral relativism crap. The actions of Muslims are exponentially worse than the actions of Christians. Christianity condemns violence, Islamic doctrine calls for the oppression and murdering of people everywhere based on the lack of belief is Islam.
   
   
3. Muslims that have not moved from hatred to jihad (passive terrorists) approve of jihad. They also suppress potentially “moderate” Muslims.
   
   
4. Stop trying to draw a line between Islamic ideology and jihadist terrorism.
   
   
5. Don’t show weakness by apologizing for cartoons or videos lampooning Muhammed
   
   
6. Quit using colonialism and the Arab-Israeli conflict as justification or an “excuse” for terrorists
   
   
7. Stop trying to separate Muslims into moderates and extremists. They're all extremists, but only those that can take the last step from hatred to jihad cause the most physical damage. Potential moderates exist, but ideology must change.
   
   
8. Understand that Saudis are the source of the problem (Wahhabis) and, thanks to oil revenues, fund most of the terrorism perpetrated around the world. Act accordingly toward the financiers.
   
   
9. Don’t bomb training grounds. The real threat are the Imams in the Mosques teaching hatred.
   
   
10. Stop the immigration of Muslims. Use England as a prime example of what happens when you allow Muslims into your country. Jihad was formerly based on the “collective” (umma). Over the last five decades doctrinal teaching has placed the burden of jihad on the individual.
    
    
11. Stop with the weak military responses, and with blaming terrorism on the actions of our military
    
    
12. This is a war against evil. Call a spade a spade. It’s not workplace violence or some other Liberal ******** term. This is not a law enforcement issue.
    
    
13. Overthrowing dictators to try and implement Democracy will not work in Muslim countries until the Islamic ideology is changed (if ever). Muslim “radicals” will elect themselves, and begin installing Sharia, which will destroy the Democracy.
    
    
14. No negotiation. Islam’s goal is to deceive non-Muslims until Sharia is instituted. Deception is known as taqiyya, and often takes the form of providing Quranic verses that are different from the verses Islamists follow
    
    
15. Don’t fall for the ruse that terrorism is caused by a lack of education, being poor, no job opportunities, or any other reason except ideology.
    
    
16. Until the ideology of Islam changes, they will not change. Don’t give them excuses to not change by blaming something other than themselves for their terrorist acts.
    
    
17. To a Muslim, you are ahl al-dhimma. Respect will have to be earned through force.

 

[Horn6721]

ia
Even though there is much true in your points realistically the non muslim world will not do enough to get muslims to change.

 

[iatrogenic]

Maybe. There is an old saying:

"Change will come when the pain of not changing exceeds the pain of changing"

 

[Seattle Husker]

What you propose is not a winnable war. Going to war against 1.6B people who are embedded in every country in the world, are yours and my neighbors and may be moderates now is crazy.

The best possible outcome is that we follow in the footsteps of Israel to a point. They've learned to deal with the consistent threat of terror. Through time limited military actions they weaken the opponents capability and tremendous intelligence they try to keep it at bay. We have the added benefit of not being bordered by a predominantly Muslim country. Rather, our strategy needs to focus on law enforcement, cyber warfare to limit their capability to convert US citizens and targeted military exercises in the Middle East with a lifetime of residual forces stationed there.

 

[iatrogenic]

The best possible outcome is that we follow in the footsteps of Israel to a point. They've learned to deal with the consistent threat of terror

Sounds like fun.

 

[Driver 8]

Religious tolerance cannot be one-sided.

First Amendment issue for us. We can't really codify intolerance of a religious doctrine we don't like, can we?

Stop the incursion of Islam into our society.

How do you do that?

The actions of Muslims are exponentially worse than the actions of Christians.

Historically it might be a wash, but I get your point.

Stop trying to draw a line between Islamic ideology and jihadist terrorism.

If I'm not mistaken the Koran pretty much authorizes, if not demands, the jihadist behaviors, but most Muslims disregard it, thank Allah.

Stop trying to separate Muslims into moderates and extremists. They're all extremists, but only those that can take the last step from hatred to jihad cause the most physical damage.

If they don't take the "last step" then I'm not sure how we label them "extremists." And are you sure they are all filled with hate? That's a broad brush.

This is a war against evil. Call a spade a spade.

It's a war against religious dogma. Same spade, imo.

Don’t fall for the ruse that terrorism is caused by a lack of education, being poor, no job opportunities, or any other reason except ideology.

Correct. I hope this point is pretty well accepted by now.

Until the ideology of Islam changes, they will not change.

I don't see it changing in the foreseeable future. Way too much history and cultural conditioning.

 

[Musburger1]

Understand that Saudis are the source of the problem (Wahhabis) and, thanks to oil revenues, fund most of the terrorism perpetrated around the world. Act accordingly toward the financiers.

#8 was the only point essential to cite. Everything else is a subset of this.

Its beyond ridiculous to declare Saudi Arabia as an ally in fighting terror. It's similar to calling 1930s Germany an ally against fascism. Let's sell Hitler $60 billion worth of weapons to be our regional partner in our war against the Nazis.

Most Sunis are not Wahhabis but they can be educated/converted to Wahabbism, which originates from Saudi Arabia but is rapidly expanding across the globe. But we are in bed with them because our decision makers fear Russia and Iran geopolitically and use the Saudis in the endeavor to check them. It's simply inlisting the devil to defeat potential rivals.

 

[iatrogenic]

First Amendment issue for us. We can't really codify intolerance of a religious doctrine we don't like, can we?

Sure we can. Take the issue of wedding cakes for gays that Christians refuse to make, or certain Christians refusing to provide marriage licenses to gays, or the Bible stating that homosexuality is not appropriate. The U.S. won't tolerate such beliefs/actions.

The issue I am addressing, however, is the deference (tolerance) being shown to Muslims. Here's an example:

Muslim bakeries in Michigan refused to bake cakes for gay weddings. You would think that would be news like Memories Pizza refusing to cater gay weddings. Nope, Muslims are part of the liberal media protected class. If Muslims want to follow their own religious beliefs and not bake cakes for gay weddings, you don’t hear any big outcry out bigotry of ‘homophobia.’ Instead, these Muslim bakeries in Michigan are given a pass to practice their religion as they see fit, unlike Christians.
http://www.redflagnews.com/headline...ake-cakes-for-gay-weddings-video-media-silent

We also see American women (reporters and politicians alike) wearing the hajib when visiting Muslim countries. How often do Muslims remove the hajib when visiting the U.S.? We tolerate their religious garb, but why do we feel the need to wear their garb while visiting their countries? The sad fact is that the hajib has significant ties to Salafist slavery and discrimination. It is not just traditional dress.

How do you do that?

The first goal of the Muslims is to slowly bring their culture into yours, and make you accept their doctrine. Here's an example:

Minnesota Technical and Community College is installing footbaths for Muslim students, which worries church-state separation advocates.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9724362

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/world/americas/07iht-muslims.4.7022566.html?_r=0

Historically it might be a wash, but I get your point.

Agreed, but keep in mind historical context. The old Testament is not followed. The Quran and Hadiths still, to this day, indoctrinate Muslims into hatred and promote killing non-muslims.

If they don't take the "last step" then I'm not sure how we label them "extremists." And are you sure they are all filled with hate? That's a broad brush.

Based on statistics (which I believe are biased due to Taqiyaa), 240,000 of the 3 million Muslims in the U.S. are okay with terrorism.

Question: What would the U.S. do if there were, say, 3 million aggies in the U.S and 240,000 of them carried a disease that was highly contagious and deadly, but difficult to detect without examination of each individual aggy?

If they do take the last step, it's too late. Are they all filled with hate? Doubtful, but the potentially "moderate Muslims" must be taught that an "extremist" Muslim that cuts off someone's head is not virtuous just because he follows the five pillars of Islam. Hopefully, finding Imams that will begin teaching "kinder and gentler" interpretations of Islam will/may solve the problem, but it is a long term process.

Correct. I hope this point is pretty well accepted by now.

The Obama administration and liberal apologists for the "poor" Muslims don't quite understand this yet. Obama and the libs refuse to recognize the unbreakable tie between Islam and terrorism committed by Muslims.

 

[I35]

iatrogenic, you're dead on with your original post. I've always said that the people of islam are friendly and peaceful.........until they're not.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Instead, these Muslim bakeries in Michigan are given a pass to practice their religion as they see fit, unlike Christians.

Given a pass or simply has no lawsuit been filed? That was the trigger in the other 2 instances, to which Crowder admits in the video. Certainly this would put a left-leaning media in a bind but it would certainly get coverage. Nobody is going to cover some rightwing vlogger's slanted expose. I'm also certain you could easily find some LGBT activist that would love to take up the cause.

The Obama administration and liberal apologists for the "poor" Muslims don't quite understand this yet. Obama and the libs refuse to recognize the unbreakable tie between Islam and terrorism committed by Muslims.

Really? Or are they really trying to avoid pushing us towards a holy war that tips the moderates toward the extremist side? I'd argue the only way to deal with this is to try to keep the moderates and extremists as separate as possible. There is no way an industrialized society is ready to exterminate 1B+ people. The thought alone would literally tear apart Western society.

It's in our best interest to keep this an active law enforcement activity (domestically). The alternative would be the end of everything we claim to stand for which plays into the hands of these extremists.

 

[iatrogenic]

Given a pass or simply has no lawsuit been filed? That was the trigger in the other 2 instances, to which Crowder admits in the video. Certainly this would put a left-leaning media in a bind but it would certainly get coverage. Nobody is going to cover some rightwing vlogger's slanted expose.

Why hasn't a lawsuit been filed? The facts are no different than the prior case involving a lawsuit.

Really? Or are they really trying to avoid pushing us towards a holy war that tips the moderates toward the extremist side?

Showing weakness encourages extremism. The moderates are not fooled by Obama acting like Islam is not involved. They understand what is happening, but they need to know that the Islamic extremists will be punished.

 

[mb227]

Why hasn't a lawsuit been filed? The facts are no different than the prior case involving a lawsuit.

You would have to ask that question of those with standing...if you don't have a plaintiff willing to pay filing fees and go to court, then you don't have a case. Remember that the State can only initiate actions where there exists a statute expressly allowing them to do so and where the bakery has trampled upon a right protected by State law. The State won't intervene with just hurt fee-fees...

 

[Crockett]

Showing weakness encourages extremism. The moderates are not fooled by Obama acting like Islam is not involved. They understand what is happening, but they need to know that the Islamic extremists will be punished.

Yeah, if you were stopping at punishing the extremists, then we wouldn't have a problem... heck, even the "Muslim sympathizing" Obama is blasting them to bits with drones when we can isolate them. These suggestions seems pointed at every Muslim, and I don't think we'll get improved results.

When the Brits clamped down on Boston Harbor over the Son's of Liberty's egregious actions, did the American Colonists all say "Oh if you are so serious we'll just stop all these demands for representation" or something like that? That's not how I read history.

If it's your fantasy that if we get more angry and oppressive with all Muslims and that the response will be "We better be nice so they won't oppress further" then you are welcome to it, but I'll oppose making that official policy. Certainly religious oppression can work ... Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao ... but I don't think it can work in a Constitutional Democracy.

 

[iatrogenic]

heck, even the "Muslim sympathizing" Obama is blasting them to bits with drones when we can isolate them.

I thought he was letting them walk free from Guantanamo, offering excuses for them like "work place violence", and ignoring their motivation.

When the Brits clamped down on Boston Harbor over the Son's of Liberty's egregious actions, did the American Colonists all say "Oh if you are so serious we'll just stop all these demands for representation" or something like that? That's not how I read history.

What did the Germans do when we clamped down on them in WWI and WWII? For that matter, what did the British do when the colonists had enough of their B.S. and put a stop to it?

If it's your fantasy that if we get more angry and oppressive with all Muslims and that the response will be "We better be nice so they won't oppress further" then you are welcome to it, but I'll oppose making that official policy. Certainly religious oppression can work ... Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao ... but I don't think it can work in a Constitutional Democracy.

Ignoring those that act like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and Muhammed will allow their evil to grow, but if it's your fantasy that they will start respecting others on their own, I have 1500 years of history that says you are wrong.

 

[Crockett]

I've known several Muslims and they've been kind, respectful, fun to be around and productive in their work. Iatrogenic, Muslims are like women in the respect that if you really want to understand them, you have to do it one at a time. Certainly I don't want to live in an Islamic country under Islamic law and we should demand organizations, countries and individuals honor the rights that are the foundations of our government and way of life. It's kind or hard to do that if we proactively blow them up on our own.

 

[Crockett]

thought he was letting them walk free from Guantanamo, offering excuses for them like "work place violence", and ignoring their motivation.

So you think we should be able to hold people indefinitely without charges or trials? I thought you liked due process, or is that only for white Christians?

 

[Crockett]

I think the last 1,500 years of history have been on mostly an arc of enlightenment, personal freedom, advances in technology, increased general prosperity. Some credit interaction with Muslims as playing a role. For instance I read from a credible sources that our knowledge of the Greek philosophers is available in the west because the learning and documents were kept alive by Muslim scholars when it was out of favor among my Christian European forefathers. These days a lot of the world where primitive tribalism remains in force is in the Islamic world, but I'm expecting that over the long term, the trend will be towards enlightenment and justice.

 

[Crockett]

What did the Germans do when we clamped down on them in WWI and WWII?

Your proposals stop well short of World War III. For all the concern Islamic inspired terrorism conjures up in the West, they pose much less threat to our government and way of life than the Germans/Italians/Japanese did in 1940.

 

[Seattle Husker]

What did the Germans do when we clamped down on them in WWI and WWII? For that matter, what did the British do when the colonists had enough of their B.S. and put a stop to it?

Think we can get them to put on uniforms and use large bases, formations and heavy weaponry? That makes them a much easier target.

 

[iatrogenic]

I agree with you. We won't win by blowing them up (well, we could but that would be very ugly). We will need to kill a few hundred thousand of them- in other countries- in the near term, and I know that sounds brutal, but it is reality.

The road to jihad looks like this:

1) Preaching
2) Participation
3) Consolidating power while faking legitimacy
4) Sharia

If #1 can be changed, they will only need to go to #2. There are peaceful verses in the Quran that would permit Muslims to stop hating "infidels". The Quran needs to be emphasized over the supporting texts (Hadiths, Sunnah, Sahaba, etc.) because it can be taught to show that the violent verses are limited to the time in which they were revealed, and that they should not be applied to the current day.

The change will only come when their leaders begin teaching respect for others. This is a huge problem currently because Salafism promotes hatred and violence, and this is the version of Islam that has become mainstream. (This problem really brings into question your, and others', contention that this is a religion, or more appropriately, that this is a religion that deserves the same treatment as other religions.) I believe it is more of a cult, and I won't apologize for that belief.

How do we handle that? Steal the Hadiths, Sunnah, Sahaba, and tafsir when they're not looking? Respect their values and ideas? Don't we have laws against people that encourage violence and rioting? If we are to use normal law enforcement, we may need to arrest a bunch of Imams and their followers. Other non-Muslim countries have had to shut down Mosques because the Muslim leaders there fomented terror.

Immigration is a huge issue. Governmental decisions about immigration have changed radically over the years. http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/our-evolving-immigration-policy Just be aware of unintended consequences, because demographics change quickly in relative terms when governments institute poor immigration management.

If you like the foreign governments being run by Muslims, go ahead and let the fast reproducing Muslim immigrants in to the U.S. Once they multiply, your great-great grand children will probably get to enjoy all of the benefits of Sharia.

How do we motivate Muslims to change? The carrot and the stick. We don't ignore the problem, re-label it, or address it weakly. It is "an extraordinary threat and requires an extraordinary response".

If we don't think change is possible, we can change our immigration policy back to the second federal immigration law that excluded any individual deemed a "convict, lunatic, idiot, or person unable to take care of himself or herself without becoming a public charge." Such a change would solve many of today's problems also.

 

[Statalyzer]

Don’t fall for the ruse that terrorism is caused by a lack of education, being poor, no job opportunities, or any other reason except ideology.

Correct. I hope this point is pretty well accepted by now.

I don't think it is. I still see that type of argument and others like it brought up quite a lot.

Quit using colonialism and the Arab-Israeli conflict as justification or an “excuse” for terrorists

I just ask if it's about colonialism, why don't we see a lot more Hindu terrorists going after the UK?

 

[iatrogenic]

So you think we should be able to hold people indefinitely without charges or trials? I thought you liked due process, or is that only for white Christians?

Absolutely not! I think we should free them so they can return to the battlefield and kill more Americans.

For instance I read from a credible sources that our knowledge of the Greek philosophers is available in the west because the learning and documents were kept alive by Muslim scholars when it was out of favor among my Christian European forefathers.

As I recall, you can thank the Christian monks for that service.

 

[iatrogenic]

These days a lot of the world where primitive tribalism remains in force is in the Islamic world, but I'm expecting that over the long term, the trend will be towards enlightenment and justice.

Well Crockett, we are discussing the Islamic world.

 

[Horns11]

As I recall, you can thank the Christian monks for that service.

Maybe the monks of the 14th century onwards, but prior to that, Islamic scholars who had been trained in the Classics at Houses of Wisdom were pretty much the only ones keeping philosophy alive. The feudal lords during the times of lay investiture were worried about losing papal support if they espoused anything that contradicted canon law.

 

[iatrogenic]

Maybe the monks of the 14th century onwards, but prior to that, Islamic scholars who had been trained in the Classics at Houses of Wisdom were pretty much the only ones keeping philosophy alive. The feudal lords during the times of lay investiture were worried about losing papal support if they espoused anything that contradicted canon law.

As the kids say, Really?

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=7495

 

[Horns11]

Your own link talks about how Muslims copied the Greek philosophy. About 95 percent of the rest of it is how monks copied Bibles. And how for every Bible copied, they were beating Satan.

It even said that Western Europeans didn't delve into the secular until the late 1200s, so when I said "14th century onwards," I meant from the 1300s onward. Lumping together the Byzantines with "Christian monks" kind of alters the meaning, as the Byzantines saw themselves as Greek and didn't share their knowledge/information/philosophy with Catholics until after several crusades. The bulk of the humanist stuff didn't make it to Italy until the Renaissance.

The first thing that pops up when I typed in "Muslims spread philosophy" in Google was this. The libraries at Cordoba were chock full of stuff from Aristotle and Eratosthenes way before anyone in Catholic Europe (not Orthodox) had studied it.

 

[mchammer]

Your own link talks about how Muslims copied the Greek philosophy. About 95 percent of the rest of it is how monks copied Bibles. And how for every Bible copied, they were beating Satan.

It even said that Western Europeans didn't delve into the secular until the late 1200s, so when I said "14th century onwards," I meant from the 1300s onward. Lumping together the Byzantines with "Christian monks" kind of alters the meaning, as the Byzantines saw themselves as Greek and didn't share their knowledge/information/philosophy with Catholics until after several crusades. The bulk of the humanist stuff didn't make it to Italy until the Renaissance.

The first thing that pops up when I typed in "Muslims spread philosophy" in Google was this. The libraries at Cordoba were chock full of stuff from Aristotle and Eratosthenes way before anyone in Catholic Europe (not Orthodox) had studied it.

It was called the Dark Ages for a reason.

 

[iatrogenic]

Not that it matters a great deal because Muslims have contributed a great deal to the knowledge base:

"The work of the Byzantine copyists from the sixth to the fifteenth centuries was considerable; and to convince ourselves it is enough to peruse the list of three thousand names of known copyists recovered by Maria Vogel and Gardthausen from Greek manuscripts ("Beihefte zum Zentralblatt für Bibliothekwesen", XXXIII, Leipzig, 1909). It will be seen that the greater number of copyists are monks ; at the end of the manuscript they often place their signature and the name of their monaster. Some of them through humility preserve anonymity: Graphe tis; oide theos ("Who wrote this? God knows")."

 

[Brad Austin]

"Change will come when the pain of not changing exceeds the pain of changing"

This.

When the Orlando gay club massacre progresses to a Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Nebraska where several dozen (including women and children) are grotesquely mowed down.

When a bomb rips through a packed shopping mall in Texas during a high shopping event and inflicts massive casualties.

We are now experiencing the infancy of the problem with relatively minimal casualties and inconsistent atrocities compared to what's coming.

Wait until it hits home with more consistency, greater ferocity, and claims multiple victims more mainstream Americans can sympathize with like 911.

The day a bomb rips through Cowboys stadium or takes out 100's waiting to get into a Patriots game...is the day radical Islamic terrorism will wish they never woke up the American sleeping giant.

This will only get immeasurably worse before Americans finally step back from the cheese fries and online political bashing and shout "that's it, bring it on mfers".

It will happen when the threat reaches a tolerance removing level for every citizen, history is clear on that. You can only poke the lazy American bear so long until it snaps and rips your f'n head off.

We've been divided and lethargic so long now that the world has forgotten there's no force on earth that can defeat a completely united, hell bent American uprising.

 

[Seattle Husker]

This.

When the Orlando gay club massacre progresses to a Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Nebraska where several dozen (including women and children) are grotesquely mowed down.

When a bomb rips through a packed shopping mall in Texas during a high shopping event and inflicts massive casualties.

We are now experiencing the infancy of the problem with relatively minimal casualties and inconsistent atrocities compared to what's coming.

Wait until it hits home with more consistency, greater ferocity, and claims multiple victims more mainstream Americans can sympathize with like 911.

The day a bomb rips through Cowboys stadium or takes out 100's waiting to get into a Patriots game...is the day radical Islamic terrorism will wish they never woke up the American sleeping giant.

This will only get immeasurably worse before Americans finally step back from the cheese fries and online political bashing and shout "that's it, bring it on mfers".

It will happen when the threat reaches a tolerance removing level for every citizen, history is clear on that. You can only poke the lazy American bear so long until it snaps and rips your f'n head off.

We've been divided and lethargic so long now that the world has forgotten there's no force on earth that can defeat a completely united, hell bent American uprising.

Let's just assume we've reached that point and start mowing them all down! That will show them. A nice show of force and I'm sure they'll all back down.

Now, cut my damn taxes because I pay way too much! Oh...you better not consider touching my social security either.

Get off my lawn too!