Religion: a net positive or negative for mankind?

I don't think I agree then.

The laws or provisions against murder, stealing, and adultry all makes sense from an animal behavior perspective of maximizing human dna and you don't need a transcendent authority to tell you not to do this. Most laws and morals make good sense biologically particularly from a macro perspective.

Do I really need some transcendent authority telling me not to steal my neighbor's car to know that this is a bad idea and wrong? I am sure this is needed as an opiate for the masses, but I get it without any extra authority.
 
Well it’s about time you joined the party Coelacanth.

Morality and justice are concepts arrived at over time by humans through experience and civilization, which is why they are always imperfect and subject to debate but never in need of religious sanction.

Asserting transcendence as a requirement for morality is hollow casuistry in an attempt to point it all back to god. But I understand—when the only tool you have is a hammer (god), then every problem starts to look like a nail (requires god). Diversification of one’s toolkit helps with these things.
 
Hitler justified or rationalized some of the Holocaust on biological grounds (I would say this was primarily his extermination of the mentally challenged or deficient not Jews or gypsies). I do not see how this is Darwin's fault or responsibility. There were also plenty of "Christians" who collaborated or participated in the Holocaust. I don't see how this Jesus' fault or responsibility although the Catholic church has some blood on its hands imo.
 
I indicated that I thought religion was a small net positive although I am unclear how to rate its opiate effect.

You might note that I thought religion was used as a rationalization or justification for man's inherent violent nature. I also referenced monkeys (meaning chimps) who form armies and kill stray male members of neighboring groups. We are just monkeys with better communication skills and a somewhat larger cranium.

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I didn't spend enough time on the slavery issue. Let's talk about that, since you brought it up.

When did slavery originate? From what I can tell of the Genesis account, slavery was already a well-established institution in the days of Abraham. We all know the story about Egypt and their use of slavery was well-documented. Did that slavery even have roots in pagan religion? Or was it simply a strong country overpowering a weak one and taking their citizens to labor? I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the nature of powerful empires and their rulers.

So let's talk about the African slave trade. Who originated it? Was it Christianity which went into Africa and compelled the tribes there to war on neighboring tribes, take captives and sell them to whites? I'm fairly sure it wasn't. I'm pretty sure it was greed that prompted this - an emotion that exists with or without religion, wouldn't we all agree to that?

So at best you can argue that Christians of that time used their religion (in some cases) to justify a practice that had been established since practically the beginning of time. You also had Christians that read scripture and could not see how men could treat other men that way and still live as Christians.

The abolitionist movement originated from Christians - I don't know how that can be disputed. Unless we go back and revise history to talk about the large groundswell of atheists in the New England colonies that were actually pushing the movement forward.

Glad you brought up slavery - I think that's a good area to examine in this discussion.
 
Catholics and say Lutherans are certainly considered christian religions. Yet neither believes or teaches that jews or muslims that lead moral lives will not go to heaven.

That is flatly, patently, and very, very incorrect.

Lutherans, per both the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LC-MS) and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) both state that to attain heaven/salvation, one much believe in Jesus as one's saviour. Good works, i.e., leading a moral life, is NOT sufficient.

Now, whether all Catholics believe this, I can't (nor can anyone else) say. There have been some writings from the RCC hierarchy that God indeed has a place at his table for the righteous of all nations (i.e., one needn't believe in Jesus to get to heaven) but that is definitely NOT the common view of today's American evangelical. In fact, it's never really been the predominant view else why the big deal over the Great Commission, or the frenzy for Catholics to baptize babies before they died (Catholics would sometimes even let the mother die at the expense of the infant because the mother had been baptized, the infant not)?

I'm neither antithetical nor antagonistic toward your overall views, bronco, but you are absolutely, factually incorrect in your above statement.

Let's get our facts right before we start pontificating, is my motto.
 
bronc, I am aware of the RCC church has said, and I have also said that no one can tell what the individual RCC members think. What the RCC as a church says and what the laity do are often two very different things. See birth control.

As far as Lutherans, yes, there are some (mostly ELCA here in the US) who would fall under your category. However, you lumped all Lutherans in the same pot, and the LC-MS (which has about 2.5 million members, iirc) and the much smaller WELS most definitely do not fall under your umbrella.

And, as I have said, there are very few evangelicals (close to zero) who accept that good works are sufficient to get into heaven. You have clarified your statement, but the original statement is incorrect. That's all I'm saying.
 
This is not worth nit picking anymore but I do not find your analogy of birth control at all relevant. Of course there are catholics that often do things the church is against. We are all individuals. That is completely different from whether or not the church teaches us that non catholics go to heaven. I know plenty of catholics that have had abortions but I don't know any that would say that jews wont go to heaven even though the church says they will.

As to Lutherans, I agree with you and have stated as much multiple times. According to sites, there are about 100 M Lutherans worldwide and at least 70 M of them believe what I have said as they are member of the lutheran federation.

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