Putin - It's All in the Eyes of the Beholder
- Thread starter Musburger
- Start date
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Yes, throw out unsubstantiated accusations! Putin is proud of you son. He is the benevolent ruler we all need in these times of the USA's global hegemon. Down with the Ukraine! Down with the West! Down with the USA!
Actually, this Ukrainian priest echoes what I hear from Ukrainians living in the States. Due to the last 20 -30 years, Ukrainians of all ethnic and linguistic types see themselves as Ukrainian and want the country to rule over itself. They don't see Putin as helping them at all but a source of oppression and corruption.
Actually, this Ukrainian priest echoes what I hear from Ukrainians living in the States. Due to the last 20 -30 years, Ukrainians of all ethnic and linguistic types see themselves as Ukrainian and want the country to rule over itself. They don't see Putin as helping them at all but a source of oppression and corruption.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Tootin' Putin is getting desperate because he knows his influence is waning. Natural gas prices are already low. With declining oil prices he is losing leverage over Europe. That and the increased supply coming out of North and South America.
He is right to have his mouthpieces in the US speak out for him, paining his adversaries in a bad light. The louder they scream the more I will know Putin is desperate.
He is right to have his mouthpieces in the US speak out for him, paining his adversaries in a bad light. The louder they scream the more I will know Putin is desperate.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
This idea of "self determination"...which country has ever allowed it, especially with a foreign power occupying sovereign land? Incidentally, the USA used this reason to coopt Texas from Mexico after Mexico allowed US citizens to move there if they renounced their US citizenship and pledged loyalty to Mexico.
Doesn't that sound eerily similar to Russia now? Under the Iron Curtain, they had a policy of relocating native Russians to their satellites. Those natives actually ran their satellites. When the curtain fell, those minority Russian populations went back to getting the "power" of a minority. The only surprise now is that Russia seems to be embracing these minorities as a means to expanding territory. Territory is resources, right?
Doesn't that sound eerily similar to Russia now? Under the Iron Curtain, they had a policy of relocating native Russians to their satellites. Those natives actually ran their satellites. When the curtain fell, those minority Russian populations went back to getting the "power" of a minority. The only surprise now is that Russia seems to be embracing these minorities as a means to expanding territory. Territory is resources, right?
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
The problem with Musberger's explanations is that they fail to identify where the problems started. He admits that Yanukovych had a miserable record of governance but who was he? Yanukovych was an ally of Russia/Putin. I won't go as far as to say "puppet" but it wouldn't be a mischaracterization. Ukrainians have told me as much. Ukrainian reporters who were at the Maidan riots last year said the same thing on Moscow-controlled TV stations before they were removed from the studio. The people of Ukraine were protesting against the corruption of his regime and the direction he was taking the country. He was clearly moving Ukraine away from joining the EU and having more close ties with Russia.
So it is illogical to implicate Yanukovych as a problem and then hail Putin as the solution. This whole situation is Putin operating under a 20th century viewpoint of controlling satellite countries in order to protect Russia. For this purpose Ukraine is absolutely critical. For the West to essentially exist right at his border makes this ol' KGB guy nervous. He is probably correct to be nervous. All you have to do is look at history.
So I can understand why Putin is orchestrating this situation in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I can also understand why he is sending out his propaganda out to justify his actions.
However, that is not the fundamental issue to me. The fundamental issue is that the people of Ukraine shouldn't be there to simply give Putin the geopolitical security he desires. They should be able to determine their own course of action. I find it highly dishonest to question the motives of a Greek Catholic priest in Ukraine while giving the benefit of doubt to a person trained as a Soviet intelligence officer. If the USA doesn't have a free and unbiased press, then what do you think Russia has?
So it is illogical to implicate Yanukovych as a problem and then hail Putin as the solution. This whole situation is Putin operating under a 20th century viewpoint of controlling satellite countries in order to protect Russia. For this purpose Ukraine is absolutely critical. For the West to essentially exist right at his border makes this ol' KGB guy nervous. He is probably correct to be nervous. All you have to do is look at history.
So I can understand why Putin is orchestrating this situation in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I can also understand why he is sending out his propaganda out to justify his actions.
However, that is not the fundamental issue to me. The fundamental issue is that the people of Ukraine shouldn't be there to simply give Putin the geopolitical security he desires. They should be able to determine their own course of action. I find it highly dishonest to question the motives of a Greek Catholic priest in Ukraine while giving the benefit of doubt to a person trained as a Soviet intelligence officer. If the USA doesn't have a free and unbiased press, then what do you think Russia has?
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Musburger- Though I may not agree with your viewpoints I appreciate you sharing them here in a respectful manner. It's possible you have a "blindspot" towards valid criticism of Putin but I also fully acknowledge the situation is more nuanced than the American media purports.
On the "self determination" point I readily acknowledged that the US used it to our advantage with Texas and as you pointed out in the 13 colonies.
Of course, the world was vastly different back then with land and resources seemingly infinite. Now, the world is defined. We all know that land equates to minerals/resources which make self determination more problematic. It also brings into question Putin's motives. Does he really care about the Russian people in Donetsk or are they simply pawns in a larger game to ensure Russian control of the coal and expansion of a security zone of Russian influence?
On the "self determination" point I readily acknowledged that the US used it to our advantage with Texas and as you pointed out in the 13 colonies.
Of course, the world was vastly different back then with land and resources seemingly infinite. Now, the world is defined. We all know that land equates to minerals/resources which make self determination more problematic. It also brings into question Putin's motives. Does he really care about the Russian people in Donetsk or are they simply pawns in a larger game to ensure Russian control of the coal and expansion of a security zone of Russian influence?
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Was able to talk to my friends last night about this situation again. I was specifically interested in the claim by Hu Fan and Musberger that the Ukrainian army was killing civillians in Donetsk and Luhansk and that is why Putin sent troops to occupy those regions. The claim is that Putin was sending the army in to stop Russian-speakers from being killed.
Well, as I suspected that is all propaganda. There are several other regions that are Russian speaking right next to Donetsk and Luhansk which would be suffering casualties right now at the hands of the Ukrainian army if that was true. However, it is not true. There is peace there and utilities are still working unlike in the two Putin-controlled states. The big fear now is that winter is here and the people have no utilities. Putin the great liberator is doing nothing to help them either. Add on top of all of that Russia has blocked Ukrainian TV stations from being received in the area. The people I know are Russian speaking and they have no love for Putin and this Russian aggression.
The same thing is going on in Crimea. The people are starving and about to be freezing. Apparently the Ukrainian government has attempted to send supplies to Crimea but of course that is not being allowed. Whatever. Russia's leverage is waning. Their aggression against Ukraine and fear of future aggression in other Eastern European countries will cause them all to pivot West. It will happen unless Russia continues to advance militarily, but there ability to finance this action is decreasing.
Putin needs to take off his 20th Century Soviet KGB glasses and look to build closer economic ties with Europe outside of oil and gas. He won't though because Russians are feeling a good bit of patriotism these days due to their "victories" in Ukraine.
Well, as I suspected that is all propaganda. There are several other regions that are Russian speaking right next to Donetsk and Luhansk which would be suffering casualties right now at the hands of the Ukrainian army if that was true. However, it is not true. There is peace there and utilities are still working unlike in the two Putin-controlled states. The big fear now is that winter is here and the people have no utilities. Putin the great liberator is doing nothing to help them either. Add on top of all of that Russia has blocked Ukrainian TV stations from being received in the area. The people I know are Russian speaking and they have no love for Putin and this Russian aggression.
The same thing is going on in Crimea. The people are starving and about to be freezing. Apparently the Ukrainian government has attempted to send supplies to Crimea but of course that is not being allowed. Whatever. Russia's leverage is waning. Their aggression against Ukraine and fear of future aggression in other Eastern European countries will cause them all to pivot West. It will happen unless Russia continues to advance militarily, but there ability to finance this action is decreasing.
Putin needs to take off his 20th Century Soviet KGB glasses and look to build closer economic ties with Europe outside of oil and gas. He won't though because Russians are feeling a good bit of patriotism these days due to their "victories" in Ukraine.
Your contacts in Ukraine are no doubt telling you what is reported in the press and shown on the news and probably believe what they hear as credible. Human rights groups on the scene and video evidence show otherwise. Just yesterday it was confirmed (again) that cluster bombing and white phosphorous have been used.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
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