Penders or Barnes

penders was not a great coach. he was a good coach that helped our program. his style of basketball led to winning some games that we probably shoudn't have won, but it was difficult to sustain. (better have good guards who were hot often) barnes is a great coach--period. he may not be the best, but he is definitely one of the best. is he the greatest offensive tactician? no. is he a damn great coach, and should we be damn glad to have him? yes. there is NO comparison between the two.
 
It's funny, when Barnes first got here, for several years it seems like every in-bounds play from our own sidelines or under our own basket we'd get off a good look. Now it's seem like our inbound plays usually self-destruct.

Thanks, BiH, I had forgotton he came from JC.

I remember some sort of summer league a few years back that was played at HoopZone off Lamar and Rutland. There were a few ex-UT guys (I know Freddie Williams and Brian Boddicker were there), several just-graduated HS seniors, and a couple of older guys who used to be NBA journeyman.

One of the big highlights of the game I watched there was Dave Jamerson (former Rocket/Jazz 10th man in the early 90s) hitting 4 or 5 three pointers with a man in his face thanks to the quickest cut, turn, and release I've ever seen.

The other was Freddie's defense.

There was a lot of fastbreaking and above the rim action, especially from the high school crowd, but when Freddie came in he'd guard his man as tight as humanly possible and stick with them like they were tied together. One or two hotshot guys couldn't really even get past the three point line before he'd cut them off, and I don't think anybody scored a single point on him the whole game.
 
After having suffered thru the Bob Wet-lick years, those first 3-4 years with Penders were a ******* blast!!!!
BMW: Blanks Mays Wright
THE ULTIMATE SCORING MACHINE
texasflag.gif
 
I love how a coach can win around 80% of his games and then be described as "not a good gameday coach".

What are some of you thinking ?
 
Let me elaborate on what I was thinking when I said, “Barnes would not make a top ten of current game day coaches.”

In a strategic sense Barnes is a great coach and TEXAS is sure glad (blessed) to have him, there is no question about this. His TEXAS teams are well behaved, well mannered, and move towards graduation. All the while representing The University with integrity and character in a family atmosphere. Good job Barnes!

From a tactical stand point Barnes is one of the best, if not the best recruiters in college basketball today. If Barnes were head coach at Kansas, North Carolina, Kentucky or UCLA he would have the #1 or #2 recruiting class every single year. Barnes signs outstanding recruiting classes and he is at a football school with a morgue for a field house and piss poor fan support. Great job Coach!

From a technical aspect Barnes teams play defense well and offense very poorly. If TEXAS can overwhelm an opponent with talent, athleticism, hard work, hustle and defense then TEXAS will usually win; but if those things are equal or less than equal with the opponent then Barnes does not fare very well. When Barnes competes on game day against a coach that knows his Xs and Os and the game gets close, Barnes gets that “deer-in-the-head-lights” look, we all have seen it on him and the game gets away from him more times than not. Poor job Rick.

In any case,
1. Head Coach - Barnes is top ten
2. Recruiter - Barnes is top three
3. Game Day Coach - Barnes is not top ten

I hope this clears up what I said.
 
I wonder about Barnes as an offensive coach, too, particularly after watching seemingly endless examples of that awful play with Abrams moving clockwise around the three point line. Still, UT managed to place in the top 5 in Kenpom's adjusted offensive efficiency rating for three straight years before last year's drop.
The Link
 
Barnes needs to bring in assistant who can make up for his inability to coach offense. I think he is a very good coach, but I don't think we'll ever win an NC under him.
 
So, who are the coaches that are better than Barnes? And, I'm talking full package. Some coaches might be masters of the X's and O's but they can't bring in the players needed to win championships. What coaches do folks think would do better? I recognize that Barnes has shortcomings, but I still maintain that talent is more important as long as coaching doesn't screw it up.
 
OK, to answer your question, I would put all these coaches ahead of Barnes as far as offense Xs and Os go on gameday:

1. Tom Izzo - Michigan St.
2. Mike Krzyzewski - Duke
3. Mark Few - Gonzaga
4. Bob McKillop - Davidson
5. James Larranaga - George Mason
6. Rick Pitino - Louisville
7. Ben Howland - UCLA
8. Todd Lickliter - Iowa
9. Jamie Dixon - Pittsburg
10. Chris Mooney - Richmond
11. Roy Williams - North Carolina
12. Jim Calhoun - Connecticut
13. Jim Boeheim - Syracuse
14. Gary Williams - Maryland
15. Bobby Cremins - Charleston
16. Tom Crean - Indiana
17. Bo Ryan - Wisconsin
18. Jay Wright - Villanova
19. Thad Matta - Ohio St.
20. Bill Self - Kansas
21. Sean Miller - Xavier
22. Tubby Smith - Minnesota
23. Billy Donovan - Florida


But none, save Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski and Thad Matta are better recruiters than Rick Barnes. Barnes' teams play defense as well or better than most of these coaches' teams; and I would not trade any of them for Barnes as long as Barnes wants to stay at TEXAS.
 
Out of those, I would take Williams, Izzo and Wright over Barnes. Everyone else is either equal, less to or on the decline in running a program.
 
As I said before, I would not take any of them over Barnes. I just wish one of them would teach Barnes the Xs and Os to run an offense on gameday.
 
I may be completely off base, but I seem to recall that several of our recent high profile recruits have said that one of the things that really attracted them to Texas was the lack of a regimented offense and the freedom our offense allowed them. So while some Longhorn fans may consider Barnes lacking in offensive X's and O's, is it possible that his offensive strategy is actually one of the things that makes him such a good recruiter?

Honestly, I don't know and don't care that much b/c I really wouldn't trade Barnes for any of them. Just posing the question.
 
Just throwing this out there for the sake of stats. My account of Barnes' record vs. these head coaches (not teams) during his tenure at Texas..

1. Tom Izzo - Michigan St. 2-2
2. Mike Krzyzewski - Duke 0-4
3. Mark Few - Gonzaga 0-2
4. Bob McKillop - Davidson NP
5. James Larranaga - George Mason NP
6. Rick Pitino - Louisville NP
7. Ben Howland - UCLA 2-0
8. Todd Lickliter - Butler NP
9. Jamie Dixon - Pittsburg NP
10. Chris Mooney - Richmond - NP
11. Roy Williams - North Carolina - 1-0
11a. Roy Williams - Kansas 1-4
12. Jim Calhoun - Connecticut - 2-1
13. Jim Boeheim - Syracuse 0-1
14. Gary Williams - Maryland NP
15. Bobby Cremins - Charleston NP
16. Tom Crean - Indiana NP
17. Bo Ryan - Wisconsin 1-2
18. Jay Wright - Villanova 2-1
19. Thad Matta - Ohio St. NP
19a. Thad Matta - Xavier - 0-1
20. Bill Self - Kansas 4-6
20a. Bill Self - Illinois - 1-0
21. Sean Miller - Xavier NP
22. Tubby Smith - Minnesota 1-0
23. Billy Donovan - Florida NP

17-24. (.414) *edited
 
overmaars,

So since Barnes has been at TEXAS he has gone heads up with 12 of the 23 I listed, and he is 17-22 (you miss added your numbers) against them. I don't know if you meant to or not, but I think you proved my point on at least half of the list. That was some excellent stat research.
 
Except that list tells us nothing about which team had the better raw talent on the day of the game. All we know is Barnes has a .436 winning percentage against your list of 20 supposedly better Xs and Os coaches.

Edit: Make that .421. I count 16 wins on that list.
 
I'm fairly sure Barnes has beaten Self at least twice since he's been at Kansas. But it doesn't really matter.
 
you are right, I am the one who miss counted. when you correct the Self record to 4-6, Barnes is 18-26 against the coaches I listed, .409 pct
 
No, it's 19-24, for .442, if we only correct the record against Self at Kansas from 1-4 to 4-6.

And we still don't have anything to compare the raw talent levels of the teams playing, we don't know where the games were played, etc., so I don't see how anyone can take that figure and conclude it is evidence that Barnes is inferior to those listed coaches in game day strategizing.
 
OK bierce,

Why does Barnes only have a .414% over all winning record against 12/23 coaches on the list?

Is it because he has a program out of control with no leadership? No.
Barnes runs one of the cleanest most respected programs in the country and his players would run through walls for him.

Is it because he has inferior talent? No.
Barnes has out recruited everyone on the list except Williams and Krzyzewski. So take those W/L away and Barnes is still only 14-14 against the rest of the list.

Is it because his teams don't play defense or give an effort? No.
TEXAS plays defense as well or better than any of the teams coached by anyone on the list. And you always see 100% effort from Barnes team.

Is it because The Erwin Center sucks as a basketball venue and thus gives TEXAS no home court advantage? No.
All you have to do is look at TEXAS home record and see that is not true.

Is it because Barnes has lost kids to NBA early entry? May be.
But welcome to the double edge sword of recruiting top talent. You can not recruit top high school basketball players and not have some "one and done."

So what is it? Whats left? You tell me, I'm listening.
 
You guys still have the wrong record. Barnes' Texas teams are 4-6 againt Self's KU teams. Self was coaching KU in 2003-04, so you have to add 2 Texas wins. That yields a 19-24 record, or .442.
The Link
The Link

Is .442 below .500? Yes. Is it a lot below .500, given the sample size? No. Not really.

Is the record due to talent disparity, home-road disparity, injuries? Hell if I or anyone here knows, whichi is my point. I don't think you can look at a list of results against coaches without having information on the team members, their health, their experience, game location, etc., and make any kind of grand pronouncement that the coach who won 44.2% of those games is inferior to the other coaches. There are simply too many unaccounted for variables.

For example, is Barnes less of a coach than Coach Shuh because the 03-04 team with Royal Ivey as the only player to have any kind of a career in the the NBA couldn't win against a higher rated Duke team with Deng and four other starters who have all played on NBA teams? Is he less of a coach because his nearly all freshman team couldn't beat KU in Kansas but lost two close games in succession to a team 12 spots higher in the polls? Because the following year he could only manage a split against the National Champs? Because his 7th seeded team lost to 2nd seeded Duke last year thanks in large part to a phantom foul called against James in the last minute? Because Texas lost last year to a team that made it to the Final TWO?

Just saying 19-24 doesn't prove anything without more information, that's all. I'm not necessarily saying Barnes is better at drawing up a play for his team on game day; I'm just saying you can't conclude anything from the w-l record shown.
 
It's 17-24. I corrected Self and Roy Williams record.

2003-2009 record against Self at Kansas is 4-6,
1998-2002 record against Williams at Kansas is 1-4.

Record is still 17-24. You add two wins to Self head to head, but deduct those two wins from Williams. (.414)

The Link

I've also compiled that Barnes' NCAA Tournament record vs. these coaches is 4-2. (.667) Not bad.
 
Gotcha on the Self-Williams shift. OK, .414 it is. I still don't think that changes much my opinion that one can't really determine from that whether Barnes catch match the other coaches at Xs and Os. If anything the link provided to the Wikipedia page shows a lot of the losses were on the road or to higher ranked teams.
 
What a silly thread. The notion that even a handful on that list are better gameday
rolleyes.gif
coaches than Barnes is ridiculous. And the winning percentage is irrelevant as it is skewed by his record vs. a couple of guys and that fact he hasn't even played 12 of the 26. A far more accurate way of looking at the list would be to say only 7 of the of the 26 have a winning record vs. Barnes, and of those 7, are you really going to suggest a 2-1 or 1-0 record indicates that person is a better coach than Barnes (gameday or otherwise)? Absolute nonsense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Weekly Prediction Contest

* Predict HORNS-AGGIES *
Sat, Nov 30 • 6:30 PM on ABC

Recent Threads

Prediction Results Threads

2024 Schedules

Back
Top