towersniper
100+ Posts
Thanks - and I love you too. But you go too far. Much as Nadler may be a hypocrite but not for the reasons stated, I am usually full of crap. Just not this time.
Mueller Report Finally Released...
- Thread starter Clean
- Start date
So the full report has been released and, just as predicted, the left is moving right along with their Russia Collusion hoax story as if the report never happened. What else can they do, I guess. They will never admit they were wrong about anything.
Whatever your political persuasion, and whether or not you like or dislike Trump, I think it's wise to say it's about time to close the book on this. The investigation was very long, thorough, involved many witness interviews, and used truly massive amounts of government manpower and resources. And while apparently inconclusive as to whether Trump did or didn't do anything improper, nothing was found that could rise to the level of a crime by Trump or his family.
No need to waste massive government resources, money, and time chasing down more rabbit holes. And definitely no need to waste massive government resources, money, and time attempting an impeachment (that would never lead to a conviction even if successful).
The world keeps on turning. There is important government business to be done.
[Full disclosure: I'm a pragmatist and not a big Trump guy (although I thoroughly enjoy and am amused by the political humor he brings to the table and the crazy offensive things he often says).]
No need to waste massive government resources, money, and time chasing down more rabbit holes. And definitely no need to waste massive government resources, money, and time attempting an impeachment (that would never lead to a conviction even if successful).
The world keeps on turning. There is important government business to be done.
[Full disclosure: I'm a pragmatist and not a big Trump guy (although I thoroughly enjoy and am amused by the political humor he brings to the table and the crazy offensive things he often says).]
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
From my reading of the articles, it showed Trump is still pretty shady. He lied about things related to Russian connections. He gave directions to staffers to do things that could have been considered obstruction. To their credit they didn't do those things. It showed Trump guilty of misdeeds but not to the point of collusion or obstruction according to the law. Trump is truly a flawed individual, but his policy has been more good than bad. Now if he could just rescind his veto against the Congressional order to stop aiding the Saudi military in the attacks on Yemen.
Possibly, but we don't for sure any of this is true. This investigation was not exactly built on a pillar of truth in the first place.
Now do Hillary, or Obama. Par for the course.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
There is clearly something rotten in the FISC.
The FBI/DOJ were able to obtain a FISA warrant targeting Carter Page and then three FISA renewals to continue spying on him. It does now appear to be confirmed, as we have been alleging for 2 years, that all of this was based on Fusion GPS “research” for a year. How many other warrants were submitted for FISA warrants based soley on the bogus Fusion GPS info? There were several more although they have not disclosed to us exactly how many and who they were on.
Who were these secret judges who approved the Page warrant four times on this thinly-sourced and uncorroborated information?
Should any of these judges be impeached?
Is it time to end the "secret court?" Should we have ever even had a "secret court?" Sounds like something Castro, Stalin or Mao would have but not the US.
The FBI/DOJ were able to obtain a FISA warrant targeting Carter Page and then three FISA renewals to continue spying on him. It does now appear to be confirmed, as we have been alleging for 2 years, that all of this was based on Fusion GPS “research” for a year. How many other warrants were submitted for FISA warrants based soley on the bogus Fusion GPS info? There were several more although they have not disclosed to us exactly how many and who they were on.
Who were these secret judges who approved the Page warrant four times on this thinly-sourced and uncorroborated information?
Should any of these judges be impeached?
Is it time to end the "secret court?" Should we have ever even had a "secret court?" Sounds like something Castro, Stalin or Mao would have but not the US.
I think I solved the Andy Kaufman question:
Clean
5,000+ Posts
Obviously they're just rubber stamping the warrant requests that come before them. They've only rejected 12 of almost 34,000 requests to come before them.
I assume that the court was established to verify that FISA warrants weren't being abused. They're not performing that function. I say get rid of them.
United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court - Wikipedia
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
It's up to John Roberts to remedy but I am not convinced he is the right person at this time to do what should be done.
Bigger picture, the law itself needs to be changed.
The report writers, like me, see Trump as a shameless liar who seems amazed that others take the truth more seriously than he does. I've observed Presidential lying since about 1972. I have to say that Trump makes Clinton and Nixon look like they were freebasing truth serum.
Clean
5,000+ Posts
The question is; what are you freebasing?
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Reality.
You are freebasing your wet dream of seeing Trump impeached.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
What is up with the "religious" and their infatuation with sexual analogies?
Not impeached. Your crazies would pull out their guns were that to happen. Happy to see him voted out in 2020.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
SH,
Please the calendar attached below.
Help me out... I've never understood what it must feel like where someone else's meme creation defines your reality. Can you explain it?
What's up with atheists and their infatuation with supplanting God with the federal government?
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Faith vs. Reality. One can be seen, managed, audited and voted out if needed. The other?
Now...about your sexual analogies...
You're kidding right? The gov't is out of control and can not be managed and should be given a little amount of power as possible, but the cat is out of the bag so to speak. It just keeps growing and growing and getting more and more out of control every day.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
The question posed was faith vs government. So you side with faith?
Maybe he meant, no faith in the government.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
So I've pondered the Mueller Report, and there are some layers for analysis. First, there may have been some smoke, but there was no fire. Trump did not collude with the Russian government to do anything illegal. The overwhelming majority of the Left as well as the supposedly unbiased media jumped wildly to self-serving conclusions on the matter and pumped up the allegations for 2 years and now look like fools.
Second, just because there was no fire doesn't mean the matter shouldn't have even been investigated. Even if the Steele Dossier was ********, the Russian interference was real and was worth investigating. It should not have just been dropped.
Third, though I think Mueller did a respectable job and think his report has a lot of useful information, people shouldn't view his report as unbiased or having supreme authority. It isn't and isn't supposed to be. It is a prosecutor's analysis and findings. When I sued insurance carriers, it was not my job to be fair to them. My relationship to them was entirely adversarial. It was my job to make them look as bad as I possibly could and argue that the law should be applied to them under the most onerous of interpretations. Likewise, Mueller's relationship to Trump is adversarial, and every factual conclusion and legal argument in his report has an anti-Trump spin, as it should. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with his report. It just means that it is one-sided, and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
Fourth, despite Mueller's wishi-washiness on the obstruction of justice angle, there was no obstruction of justice. Only under the very broadest of interpretations of the obstruction statute is there even an argument (See my third point.), and even then, it's a big stretch. Trump had the power to the shut the investigation down. He didn't, even if he whined about it to subordinates and flirted with shutting it down. The media is making a big deal about people refusing to obey orders, but the bottom line is that the President has the power. If someone put up resistance to him, he could have shitcanned him or her on the spot and forced his orders through. None of that happened. He could have told people to lie to investigators or hidden damning documents or information. He didn't. Basically, he let the FBI do its job (even Comey admits that) and let Mueller do his, whether he acted like an adult in the process or not.
Fifth, just because Trump didn't collude and didn't obstruct justice doesn't mean he was a "good guy" in this. He bullshat and lied countless times and had his people lie. Furthermore, he publicly whined and pitched tantrums about it. I understand why he was pissed off, but he needlessly gave the opposition a ton of material. He cooperated with the investigation. He should have acted like he was cooperative and then declined to comment on it when asked about it. In other words, he should have acted like an adult and controlled his emotions. Then we'd really be looking at an unmitigated exoneration.
Sixth, I'll make my last point by answering this comment:
Yes, he has been caught in some lies. The problem is that reporters who make this observation have no credibility. Trump lied about something that was fake (Russian collusion). You can't get righteous and condemning about that if you were OK with Clinton lying about the Lewinsky matter (which was under oath and a felony), shrugged off "if you like your health plan, you can keep it," and rolled your eyes when people had a problem with "the attack happened because of an internet video." This not "whataboutism." None of it makes Trump's lies OK, but it certainly makes the critics freak-outs ring extremely hollow. If you want to call Trump out on his dishonesty, you have to call out dishonesty when it's not politically convenient to do so.
Second, just because there was no fire doesn't mean the matter shouldn't have even been investigated. Even if the Steele Dossier was ********, the Russian interference was real and was worth investigating. It should not have just been dropped.
Third, though I think Mueller did a respectable job and think his report has a lot of useful information, people shouldn't view his report as unbiased or having supreme authority. It isn't and isn't supposed to be. It is a prosecutor's analysis and findings. When I sued insurance carriers, it was not my job to be fair to them. My relationship to them was entirely adversarial. It was my job to make them look as bad as I possibly could and argue that the law should be applied to them under the most onerous of interpretations. Likewise, Mueller's relationship to Trump is adversarial, and every factual conclusion and legal argument in his report has an anti-Trump spin, as it should. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with his report. It just means that it is one-sided, and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
Fourth, despite Mueller's wishi-washiness on the obstruction of justice angle, there was no obstruction of justice. Only under the very broadest of interpretations of the obstruction statute is there even an argument (See my third point.), and even then, it's a big stretch. Trump had the power to the shut the investigation down. He didn't, even if he whined about it to subordinates and flirted with shutting it down. The media is making a big deal about people refusing to obey orders, but the bottom line is that the President has the power. If someone put up resistance to him, he could have shitcanned him or her on the spot and forced his orders through. None of that happened. He could have told people to lie to investigators or hidden damning documents or information. He didn't. Basically, he let the FBI do its job (even Comey admits that) and let Mueller do his, whether he acted like an adult in the process or not.
Fifth, just because Trump didn't collude and didn't obstruct justice doesn't mean he was a "good guy" in this. He bullshat and lied countless times and had his people lie. Furthermore, he publicly whined and pitched tantrums about it. I understand why he was pissed off, but he needlessly gave the opposition a ton of material. He cooperated with the investigation. He should have acted like he was cooperative and then declined to comment on it when asked about it. In other words, he should have acted like an adult and controlled his emotions. Then we'd really be looking at an unmitigated exoneration.
Sixth, I'll make my last point by answering this comment:
Yes, he has been caught in some lies. The problem is that reporters who make this observation have no credibility. Trump lied about something that was fake (Russian collusion). You can't get righteous and condemning about that if you were OK with Clinton lying about the Lewinsky matter (which was under oath and a felony), shrugged off "if you like your health plan, you can keep it," and rolled your eyes when people had a problem with "the attack happened because of an internet video." This not "whataboutism." None of it makes Trump's lies OK, but it certainly makes the critics freak-outs ring extremely hollow. If you want to call Trump out on his dishonesty, you have to call out dishonesty when it's not politically convenient to do so.
If the FBI investigation was on the up and up, Comey should have leveled with Trump on day 1. He didn’t and due to his TDS getting the better of him (and others), he put our the country through this distraction.
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