Matt Barnes to Raptors?

Could you change the title of this thread so as not to give everyone a heart attack?

Matt Barnes is not the lifeblood of the Texas Basketball program..
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Sorry, I saw that on espn this morning while half asleep and just couldn't resist putting it up. Here is the follow-up piece on the new details.

Link
 
Without Barnes KD and DJ don't even consider UT. Add in TJ, PJ, Thompson, Hamilton, Bradley, and Joseph as well.

Barnes has made UT a household name in basketball and has opened up recruiting outside of Texas more than anyone expected when he came to UT.

While I think we should have done better last year than a 1st round exit, I'm not sure we had as much talent as everyone likes to believe. Our ONLY center averaged less than 7 rebounds a game, couldn't defend a Pick and Roll, and couldn't play more than 4 minutes at a time. Our PF's were 6'6 and 6'7. We didn't have a PG. We had 2 Freshmen that were selfish and couldn't guard anyone. We had 2 guys that wouldn't shoot at all. And, we had 2 season ending injuries. Oh, and we were one of the worst FT shooting teams in the nation.

To me, that's not a Final Four team, or an Elite 8 team.
 
Rex, we agree mostly on Barnes not being a great coach I believe. We also view in a similar manner that while he is the reason for excitement, getting a group of people excited preseason just to tear them to shreds with disappointment (due to various reasons, certainly not ALL Rick's fault) isn't necessarily "better."

I disagree with your assessment of many of the teams that you listed, especially the one that got trounced by USC. We've had this argument on here before, and you are entitled to your opinion of course, but to call that USC team that was up on UNC by 20 "outclassed" is just silly. That team was loaded...LOADED with talent. Experienced and bigger than us as well.
 
Rex, I'm sorry but I've got to call you out on a few of your posts. Now I was as disappointed as anybody of the results from last season and almost started firerickbarnes.com. I saw 08-09 as a rebuilding year and last year bothered me because of all the talent squandered and what it would've done to recruiting in this state where the talent is going to be unbelievable in the next few years.

With all that said, you're trying to kill Barnes for 04-05 but fail to mention that Aldridge only played about half the season as he had a season-ending hip injury at the beginning of conference play. You also failed to state in the same year PJ Tucker was academically ineligible for the second semester. You used these two as the main examples for all the "talent" we had yet they didn't play half the season. So that team was essentially all Gibson & Buckman with a little of Klotz, I actually saw that as one of Barnes' best coaching jobs just to get them into the tourney.

Many people look at 06/07, see KD and Augustin and wonder how we didn't win a championship. Well this isn't the NBA and you need balance and experience as well as talent to win and we didn't have that. That team had no depth, no inside presence and no experience. KD and Damion James were the #1 and #3 rated SF in the 2006 class according to Rivals, yet they played exclusively at PF/C as freshman with little to nothing behind them for 40 mins and you expected that team to do much more?? In comparison, Texas had 7 fish on that team and UConn had 8 fish the same year with a class of Stanley Robinson, Curtis Kelly(now at K-St.), Jerome Dyson, Gavin Edwards and Hasheem Thabeet. That UConn team didn't qualify for the NIT with Jim Calhoun at the helm, while Texas with Rick Barnes won 25+ games, earned a top 4 seed in the NCAA tourney and did it with essentially a prep school team.
 
Thanks for addressing the Aldridge-Tucker issue, GQ. I was going to type a response, but you beat me to it and were much more cordial than I would've been.

Rex, I love your name (I own the movie!), but I think you are letting the disappointment and resentment of the past couple of years cloud your recollection and critique of Barnes' performance. It's the worst sort of revisionism, but it is, as I have stressed, what fans do.
 
elface, that was extremely impressive. I agree with basically everything you said, though I'm not giving Atchley a pass because he cut his tongue. Normal diet or not, it's not like that affects his shooting which was utterly abysmal. Good job though. That must have taken a long time.
 
maars: 04-05 was the team that lost it's best player (Tucker) and it's most talented player (Aldridge) halfway through the year. Gibson had to do everything on the team and I felt the weight of the program on him just watching the games. Buckman came on strong, but there's only so much two guys can do. Texas was rolling into gear right when Aldridge got hurt and Tucker got suspended and that was one of the times I've been most excited about UT hoops.

Sad to see what happened with Gibson basically losing all ability to play PG and us having no backcourt depth/PG leadership the next season. I can only imagine how good 2006/2007 would have been if we had the momentum to build on from the year before. We also got screwed over by the Mike Williams debacle, as he got way behind in development and then transferred to Cincy where he was a solid player. Same with Dowell to Houston.
 
Rex,

If your arguement is that Dex was a great college player because he got drafted, then you're an idiot. He's 6'10 with soft hands. It was the 2nd round. NBA teams thought so highly of him that Daniel Orton got drafted in the 1st round after avg. 3 ppg and not starting.

As for Brown and Hamilton, I could actually argue that they might have won more games had they not played as much. Our offense wasn't the problem. We had one of the highest ppg in the conference. But our defense sucked! It sucked because we had these two out there. This also explains why Mason and Balbay played at all. They wouldn't have if Brown and Hamilton played D, weren't worried about their #'s, and seemed even a little interested in their team winning games. Call me crazy, but as a coach I'd rather play the guys that work their *** off everyday, know their role, and actually want to win more than pad their stats.

And obviously I know that losing Ward and Balbay weren't killers to our season. My point was that when you add them to the rest of the list it helps explain why we weren't as talented as people like to believe.

Oh, and most teams aren't great with ****** PG's. I shouldn't have to explain why, but if you need me to I can. They usually aren't good with 6'6 PF's, selfish players, and a lack of Defense and FT shooting.
 
I don't doubt chemistry was lost, maybe morale was low. Losing PJ was a huge blow. But Aldridge was only active for 16 games as a freshman and his contribution was minimal. Aldridge averaged less minutes than Paulino. Barnes' should have been able to do more with his veteran senior leadership. They had a pretty effective perimeter shooting unit in Sydmill Harris & Kenny Taylor. Klotz and Buckman brought a serviceable inside game and DGib...well, he was the best player on that team and I agree he was under a lot of pressure as a freshman, but he stepped up and handled it well. Barnes should have built the supporting players around Daniel. That squad was solid enough though even without a true PG that I think they could have been coached up through the Aldrige/Tucker loss. The Big 12 was pretty weak that year. They should have won more conference games. Dropping two to a 14-16 Colorado team was really what sold me on the F for Rick. They easily could have beaten Nevada too.

The Mike Williams situation was indeed a debacle but I think was more about Mike Williams than anything or anyone else. He did stand out a little more at Cincinnati, but not much. Mikes problems were his. I don't hang Mike or Deon on Barnes'. Still give him an F for that season though.
 
They could have beat Nevada and almost did. That team was doomed when P.J. and LA "went down." LA played less than Paulino only after he got hurt (22.2 MPG vs. 22.3 MPG, Kenton's went up as the season went on). He was playing really well up until the time he got injured (9.9 PPG, 5.9 Reb), in my estimation. No way you could have expected a team to rebound efficiently from circumstances like that unless you have a miracle-worker on your team. No coach in the country could have turned that around.
 
Barnes has had three players drafted in the top ten since the FF team, not 4--Durant, Aldridge, Augustin, and he had those for a total of 4 1/2 seasons, with the 1/2 season not being during tournament time, and with Durant and Augustin playing together as freshmen as the only time two of those guys were on the floor together.

Sub. 50% shooting centers who average less than a rebound every 5 minutes and get to the line less than twice a game while playing nearly 30 minutes, aren't really an asset. That Klotz had to play 29 minutes a game says volumes about the 04-05 team. I liked Klotz and really appreciated him for his effort, but he was a below average D1 center. Calling him "serviceable" is being kind.
 
Good posts, 3ball. Once Barnes took over and showed what he could do – winning the B12 with a thin but talented team – I always thought of Penders as being the exhausted relay runner who could barely get the baton to the next guy.

Barnes took it and has brought the program to the point where fans are ticked off because he can’t produce at what they think should be the highest level with some of the best raw talent in the nation. These are players who never would have considered Texas if not for the foundation that Barnes was able to lay, with TJ Ford being the capstone.

I’m getting tired of rehashing last year, but it’s all we have until next year, so, yeah, the pieces did not fit. A good PG would have whitewashed some of the problems and probably gotten the team to the S16. That’s still less than I thought, but I also expected more progress from Balbay/Brown, etc. Bradley played the role Barnes gave him. I don't think it was the right one, but he ran out of gas by the end of the season. They’ll be dealing this year with their basic failure to recruit and develop depth across the front line. That is on Barnes also.

Still, Rex, I think your grading is much too harsh. Barnes has not been able to keep his most of his talent together for a reasonable time. He didn’t have an “extra” season of DJ, for example, like Bill Self got with Brandon Rush when he got hurt. Without Rush, they don’t win the NC. Damion James was the exception, not the rule.

The best players Barnes has had, by and large, have not been ranked at the very top of the recruiting lists, even though your underlying theme is that he didn’t get enough out of the players that he had. TJ wasn’t, Aldridge wasn’t, Gibson wasn’t. The only top-10 guys I can find on a reasonably quick review at RSCI are Durant (No. 2), Bradley (No. 4), and Tristan Thompson (No. 9).

I saw you relying on Dexter Pittman being drafted as an indication that Barnes underachieved with him. P.J. Tucker went in the second round as B12 POY, and he lasted less than a year in the league. Pittman is quick for his size and can stand up to NBA centers on the defensive end – that’s what the NBA sees in him, I think. He never became an offensive threat. He can’t score more than an arm’s length from the basket. He hasn’t been a threat on the pick and roll. I hope he does well, but all things considered, he wound up being a disappointment. But there have been a lot more positives over the years…. Tucker and Ivey being drafted at all, Ford (thought to be about the sixth-best PG in his class, yet being NPOY and going in the top 10), Augustin going in the lottery when he was barely top 30 in his class. Pre-TJ, you had Chris Mihm making All-American and going lottery when he was barely top 100.

I am not arguing that he hasn’t recruited good talent. (There are several RSCI players in the teens.) I am not arguing that he hasn’t messed it up to a major extent. What I am saying is that if you really think Barnes has done a “C” job over the last seven years, he still has a top-10 program. (Bottom of list, true, but still on the list.) I’ll help, if you’re wondering about the list… UNC, Duke, KU, UConn, Memphis, MSU, Pitt, UCLA, Villanova, Texas and Florida. After that comes Louisville, Kentucky, Wisconsin, Gonzaga, Syracuse, West Virginia, Ohio State… etc. He’s been making the tournament when a lot of these teams have been missing. If Barnes gets a C, everyone else flunks. When EE teams get a B or B+, hardly anyone can pass.
 
I heard that somewhere.

See, overmaars, I know you follow this stuff and even you forget.

One of the points I was going to make above was that even considering the dismal finish last year, Barnes was coaching a team that made it to No. 1. They don't just hand out those rankings -- we know that because it was the first one Texas ever had. They collapsed... Barnes takes that too. My guess is that he knew what kind of trouble they would be in before they lost a game.

I really don't know what's going to happen this year. Wish I did.
 
Rex,

I will explain my "******" PG statement. I don't think Balbay or Brown are ****** players. I DO think Lucas is, but that's not important. My statement is more then as a group, not individually. Balbay doesn't shoot, isn't aggressive on Off., and doesn't have to be guarded. Therefore, he does a ****** job of running the offense. Especially a pick and roll offense. Brown does a good job of penetrating, and he looks for his shot. The problem is that he plays selfish at times. He gets on a roll and scores, but he hardly ever has a nice assist #. Therefore, he does a ****** job of running the offense.

As for Dex, him getting drafted should be a sign of what Barnes accomplished, not used against him. I know for a fact that Dex was not heavily recruited. There was ZERO thought of him becoming a NBA player. ZERO!! His production was not very good, but that's not Barnes' fault. If they played Mason and Balbay then the Def. could triple team him. If they played Brown and Hamilton, he could be wide open and they wouldn't throw him the ball.

Last, I never blamed our season on Damion and Gary. I said teams "USUALLY" are not great with 6'6 PF's. That's a fact. List the National Championships that have been won the last 30 years with 6'6 PF's. Arkansas won with Corliss Williamson, but the other big men were 6'10 and very solid. Can't think of anyone else.

Oh, and comparing Memphis basketball (at that time) to Oregan football is comical. We didn't lose to a terrible team. They set an NCAA record with 38 wins that season.
 
This isn't particularly important to the conversation, but T.J. was top 5 in the nation (overall) and the number two point guard behind Kansas' very own Aaron Miles. Not sure why Bob was underrating him so much, but whatever. Aldridge was consensus top 10 and Gibson was around top 15. Just thought I'd point that out, because it is somewhat pertinent to Bob's point that Barnes gets the most out of his less-recruited players. That's simply untrue.

Barnes' top 5 players: Durant, Ford, Augustin, James, Aldridge/Mihm. All high recruits.
 
James
Scout 19
Rivals 17

Augustin
Scout 29 (4 stars)
Rivals 49 (4 stars)

Gibson
Scout overall unknown, 4th in PG
Rivals 29th (8th SG)

Rivals had Aldridge at 16th overall.

Edit: Scout had Gibson at 16th overall and Aldridge at 9th.
 
So is that a way of disagreeing? Because it sounds more like you just proved my point. Augustin was five star until he moved to Texas, when his ranking plummeted. Typical rankings scam that was quickly exposed by the start of his college season. And I never mentioned Gibson...
 
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