Mack Wins First Quarter NC 7 - Clemson 0, and then . . .
- Thread starter stanhin
- Start date
Going for 2 in a situation like that is not the Mack Brown I remember.
Me too, but horrible play call. Should have done a RPO to that side not an option play or fake option that same side and throw back to a wide open guy on the other side.
Michael Green
25+ Posts
Typical Mack Brown. Great recruiter...horrible game day coach. Without VY he would have never won a championship.
I know you will say “nonsense”...look at all the top recruiting classes he had, and how many Big 12 championships did he get?
He really sucked at the end.
I told my wife he would go for 2 if they scored.
Bad play call, but I respect him going for the win
Bad play call, but I respect him going for the win
They played their guts out. FIFY.
They had to try for two because overtime scares you to death.
Detective Shilala
2,500+ Posts
Mack the Great Rebuilder. He knows how to build a program. I don’t disagree that he was not the best game day coach. But he knows how to build a program and RECRUIT and UNC will be relevant again soon.
Michael Green
25+ Posts
He was also part of the reason we slid so bad. I am glad he is gone. Herman is as good a recruiter and a much better coach.
MajesticII
1,000+ Posts
Herman is a better recruiter because he goes after guys even if he knows they might turn him down. Mack wouldn't do that. Also Herman will go get JUCOs to fill gaps; again Mack wouldn't do that....
Mack Brown has to be held to an entirely different standard than any other coach. Only his critics (mostly Texas fans), would look at a game where he took over a program that went 3-9 and 2-9 the previous two seasons, out-coached the defending national champs currently ranked #1 team in the country and lost by 1 point as a 27.5 point underdog, and say he is a bad game day coach because his two point conversion play against the best front seven in the country did not work.
It is amazing how the Mack Brown critics focus on one thing (usually negative) and ignore everything else (see 2 point play above). Mack Brown recruited Vince Young over Reggie McNeal. Mack Brown recruited a roster laden with NFL talent including one of, if not the best, offensive line in Texas history. Mack Brown installed a spread offensive (which was not the norm in 2005, not even with running quarterbacks). Mack Brown found a great defensive coordinator in Gene Chizik. Mack Brown's 05 team demolished every team it played except against the #2 and #4 teams, which it beat in what might as well have both been true road games. Mack Brown managed fourth quarter comebacks against both the #2 and #4 teams while basically playing two true road games. However, it was all Vince Young.
Winningest Programs of the 2000s:
1. Boise State 112-17
2. Texas 110-19
3. Oklahoma 110-24
4. Ohio State 102-25
5. USC 102-26
6. Florida 100-30
7. LSU 99-31
8. Virginia Tech 99-32
9. Georgia 98-31
10. TCU 95-29
Mack Brown was the winningest Power 5 coach for an entire decade, yet people say he was not a good game day coach.
This gets totally ignored because critics only focus on the nitpick negatives aka conference titles. Winning bowl games against Jackie Sherril, Nick Saban, Lloyd Carr, Jim Tressel, Pete Carroll, Dennis Erickson, owning Nebraska, owning A&M, owning Tech, etc gets ignored.Mack Brown had three major faults:
1. He is not the best motivator;
2. He stuck with bad coordinators too long (Greg Davis/Manny Diaz, also Mushcamp coach in waiting was a horrible mistake); and
3. Letting Greg Davis script plays leading to slow starts.
Otherwise, the man was one the best game managers I have ever seen. He could manage a clock/game like no other. It is why we had so many fourth quarter comebacks.
So far Herman has not been remotely as good at game management. Herman is pretty awful at clock management. I also do not understand why Herman hates field goals so bad. Herman is only 44 though, so I have hope he will improve. On the overall, Herman has been good, but he seems to be more "out-talenting" people than Mack Brown ever did so far. I will note that based off of the Maryland games, Oklahoma State game last year, etc, Herman has the same motivational issues so far. Like I said above, Herman is 44 and can become a better coach than Brown long term. He is a 1,000X better than Charlie Strong. I am happy with the hire and (at this time) think Herman can win us a national title.
2010 Texas 5-7 (2-6) Mack Brown
2011 Texas 8-5 (4-5)
2012 Texas 9-4 (5-4)
2013 Texas 8-5 (7-2)
2014 Texas 6-7 (5-4) Charlie Strong
2015 Texas 5-7 (4-5)
2016 Texas 5-7 (3-6)
2017 Texas 7-6 (5-4) Tom Herman
2018 Texas 10-4 (7-2)
Mack Brown dropped off from his crazy success from 1998-2009, but he never sucked other than the injury filled 2010 season. Interestingly enough, from 2010-2013 we won more games (30-21) than we did the last four years (27-24) despite the 10 win season last year.
Three men were responsible for Texas sliding so bad: Bill Powers, Steve Patterson and Charlie Strong. If Mack Brown had stayed around, he probably still continues to win 8-9 games a year.
Why can I say it was Charlie Strong and the men who hired him that put us in the gutter and not Mack Brown?
2013 South Florida 2-10 (2-6) Willie Taggert
2014 South Florida 4-8 (3-5)
2015 South Florida 8-5 (6-2)
2016 South Florida 10-2 (7-1)
2017 South Florida 10-2 (6-2) Charlie Strong
2018 South Florida 7-6 (3-5)
2019 South Florida 1-3 (0-1) *South Florida has lost 9 games in a row against FBS teams
We were not where we needed to be at the end of Mack Brown's tenure, but Charlie Strong took us in the gutter the same way he is tanking South Florida. The truly sad part is, Swoopes would probably be a good QB in Herman's offense as opposed to Charlie letting Shawn Watson try play him in a pro style offense.
Anyway, you want to hate on a former coach, hate on the Charlie Strong, the objectively worst coach in Texas history instead of our second best coach of all time who hopefully gets surpassed by Tom Herman and drops to third in the long run. It is ludicrous to complain about his game day coaching after he just out-coached a vastly superior team today.
This UNC team Mack took over may have been further in the hole than Charlie left Texas. Luckily for Mack, other than Clemson, the ACC is a far weaker conference than the Big 12. I expect this UNC season will be similar to Tom Herman's first season with a lot of ups and downs/growing pains and result in 6-8 wins for the Tar Heels. So far it looks that way.
I do not expect UNC to win a conference or national title under Mack because it is a godawful third tier football program (even Texas A&M and all its shining mediocrity is far better historically than UNC) that has not won a conference title since 1980, not even played in a tier 1 bowl game sine 1950 (UNC is 0-3 all time in tier 1 bowl appearances having lost to Rice by 14 in its last tier 1 bowl appearance) and only finished in the top 5 twice (once under Mack Brown). By comparison, mediocre aggy has finished in the top 5 three times, last played in a tier 1 bowl in 1998 and last won a conference title in 1998... which is not great. I do think Mack gets the Tar Heels a 10 win season before he retires and leaves the program in good shape for the next guy.
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Mack coached a great game yesterday. I would critique two decisions though:
1) The first 4th down try mid 4th quarter. The risk reward at that point in the game probably favors punting. NC is not going to stop Clemson when they give them the ball at the 50. But they had been stopping Clemson when the drive had to be the length of the field.
2) On the 2 point play, NC knew that Clemson had basically stuffed the run the entire game. They should also have factored in that Clemson possesses much more speed than they do, so a roll out is likely doomed. I would have tried a trick play, like starting to the right and sneaking out a TE to the left. But something unexpected. The odds of success for the play they called were low.
Finally, NC didn’t handle the onside kick very well. It was a brilliant kick but the players on the ends ran downfield too far. Had they just gone 10 yards it is likely that they would have recovered the kick. In other words, they outran the kick.
1) The first 4th down try mid 4th quarter. The risk reward at that point in the game probably favors punting. NC is not going to stop Clemson when they give them the ball at the 50. But they had been stopping Clemson when the drive had to be the length of the field.
2) On the 2 point play, NC knew that Clemson had basically stuffed the run the entire game. They should also have factored in that Clemson possesses much more speed than they do, so a roll out is likely doomed. I would have tried a trick play, like starting to the right and sneaking out a TE to the left. But something unexpected. The odds of success for the play they called were low.
Finally, NC didn’t handle the onside kick very well. It was a brilliant kick but the players on the ends ran downfield too far. Had they just gone 10 yards it is likely that they would have recovered the kick. In other words, they outran the kick.
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
You win or lose. Lose and you got outcoached.Mack Brown has to be held to an entirely different standard than any other coach. Only his critics (mostly Texas fans), would look at a game where he took over a program that went 3-9 and 2-9 the previous two seasons, out-coached the defending national champs currently ranked #1 team in the country and lost by 1 point as a 27.5 point underdog, and say he is a bad game day coach because his two point conversion play against the best front seven in the country did not work.
It is amazing how the Mack Brown critics focus on one thing (usually negative) and ignore everything else (see 2 point play above). Mack Brown recruited Vince Young over Reggie McNeal. Mack Brown recruited a roster laden with NFL talent including one of, if not the best, offensive line in Texas history. Mack Brown installed a spread offensive (which was not the norm in 2005, not even with running quarterbacks). Mack Brown found a great defensive coordinator in Gene Chizik. Mack Brown's 05 team demolished every team it played except against the #2 and #4 teams, which it beat in what might as well have both been true road games. Mack Brown managed fourth quarter comebacks against both the #2 and #4 teams while basically playing two true road games. However, it was all Vince Young.
Winningest Programs of the 2000s:
1. Boise State 112-17
2. Texas 110-19
3. Oklahoma 110-24
4. Ohio State 102-25
5. USC 102-26
6. Florida 100-30
7. LSU 99-31
8. Virginia Tech 99-32
9. Georgia 98-31
10. TCU 95-29
Mack Brown was the winningest Power 5 coach for an entire decade, yet people say he was not a good game day coach.
Mack Brown had three major faults:
1. He is not the best motivator;
2. He stuck with bad coordinators too long (Greg Davis/Manny Diaz, also Mushcamp coach in waiting was a horrible mistake); and
3. Letting Greg Davis script plays leading to slow starts.
Otherwise, the man was one the best game managers I have ever seen. He could manage a clock/game like no other. It is why we had so many fourth quarter comebacks.
So far Herman has not been remotely as good at game management. Herman is pretty awful at clock management. I also do not understand why Herman hates field goals so bad. Herman is only 44 though, so I have hope he will improve. On the overall, Herman has been good, but he seems to be more "out-talenting" people than Mack Brown ever did so far. I will note that based off of the Maryland games, Oklahoma State game last year, etc, Herman has the same motivational issues so far. Like I said above, Herman is 44 and can become a better coach than Brown long term. He is a 1,000X better than Charlie Strong. I am happy with the hire and (at this time) think Herman can win us a national title.
2010 Texas 5-7 (2-6) Mack Brown
2011 Texas 8-5 (4-5)
2012 Texas 9-4 (5-4)
2013 Texas 8-5 (7-2)
2014 Texas 6-7 (5-4) Charlie Strong
2015 Texas 5-7 (4-5)
2016 Texas 5-7 (3-6)
2017 Texas 7-6 (5-4) Tom Herman
2018 Texas 10-4 (7-2)
Mack Brown dropped off from his crazy success from 1998-2009, but he never sucked other than the injury filled 2010 season. Interestingly enough, from 2010-2013 we won more games (30-21) than we did the last four years (27-24) despite the 10 win season last year.
Three men were responsible for Texas sliding so bad: Bill Powers, Steve Patterson and Charlie Strong. If Mack Brown had stayed around, he probably still continues to win 8-9 games a year.
Why can I say it was Charlie Strong and the men who hired him that put us in the gutter and not Mack Brown?
2013 South Florida 2-10 (2-6) Willie Taggert
2014 South Florida 4-8 (3-5)
2015 South Florida 8-5 (6-2)
2016 South Florida 10-2 (7-1)
2017 South Florida 10-2 (6-2) Charlie Strong
2018 South Florida 7-6 (3-5)
2019 South Florida 1-3 (0-1) *South Florida has lost 9 games in a row against FBS teams
We were not where we needed to be at the end of Mack Brown's tenure, but Charlie Strong took us in the gutter the same way he is tanking South Florida. The truly sad part is, Swoopes would probably be a good QB in Herman's offense as opposed to Charlie letting Shawn Watson try play him in a pro style offense.
Anyway, you want to hate on a former coach, hate on the Charlie Strong, the objectively worst coach in Texas history instead of our second best coach of all time who hopefully gets surpassed by Tom Herman and drops to third in the long run. It is ludicrous to complain about his game day coaching after he just out-coached a vastly superior team today.
This UNC team Mack took over may have been further in the hole than Charlie left Texas. Luckily for Mack, other than Clemson, the ACC is a far weaker conference than the Big 12. I expect this UNC season will be similar to Tom Herman's first season with a lot of ups and downs/growing pains and result in 6-8 wins for the Tar Heels. So far it looks that way.
I do not expect UNC to win a conference or national title under Mack because it is a godawful third tier football program (even Texas A&M and all its shining mediocrity is far better historically than UNC) that has not won a conference title since 1980, not even played in a tier 1 bowl game sine 1950 (UNC is 0-3 all time in tier 1 bowl appearances having lost to Rice by 14 in its last tier 1 bowl appearance) and only finished in the top 5 twice (once under Mack Brown). By comparison, mediocre aggy has finished in the top 5 three times, last played in a tier 1 bowl in 1998 and last won a conference title in 1998... which is not great. I do think Mack gets the Tar Heels a 10 win season before he retires and leaves the program in good shape for the next guy.
Mack ditched the zone read because he and Colt got hit in the mouth by Bama. Instead of keeping with what was working went power eye while Baylor tamu tcu went wide open. Made that choice without the personnel. Started the slide.
Supposedly blocked move to Saban. If so, blatant disregard for The University.
Got hit in the mouth a lot by Oklahoma/better coaching. See multiple conference titles while Texas got two.
Other than that, lucky to get Vince so Texas got that long awaited Natty. Won a lot of games when rolling but when coaching was necessary when recruiting failed could not overcome that obstacle.
While I generally agree with the assessment, I would also say that Mack brought Texas back to prominence after years of mediocrity and for that we owe him a huge debt of gratitude.
Given the talent he amassed, I believe that the record could have been better. I’m talking about championships.
Two plays/sequences, had they gone differently, would probably have elevated MB to the Mt. Rushmore of college football.
The Obvious:
Colt’s injury. Without that we probably win that game, MB doesn’t change his offense, and perhaps the future would have been different. I suspect so.
Tech Game Management:
Notwithstanding the fact that Tech was given officiating preferential treatment, if either Gideon doesn’t drop the room service int or Mack better manages the last 90 seconds, we probably play in and likely win a NC in the 2008 season. While Mack couldn’t have changed the Gideon drop, he could have and should have managed the clock better.
Let me add that if MB brings the NC program to prominence, his legacy will he cemented as one of the best coaches over the past 25 years. My definition of “one of the best” would be one or two appearances in the CFP by 2026.
I think he just might do it. First, MB is a much wiser coach than he was when he left Texas. His years off will prove to be a blessing. He’s smarter, and he’s enjoying it more. I really don’t think he learned to enjoy the winning at Texas. Heck, even on 1/4/06 I didn’t see any smiles.
Second, a great recruiter, he’s sitting in a great situation. There is plenty of talent in the Carolinas and aside from Clemson, who’s his competition? Not every 4 and 5 star can go to Clemson, and given the weakness now of the Florida schools, I suspect that many of the FL kids will give NC a good look. That’s a formula for success.
I’ll predict that by the 2021 season NC will be giving Clemson a run for their money.
I think he just might do it. First, MB is a much wiser coach than he was when he left Texas. His years off will prove to be a blessing. He’s smarter, and he’s enjoying it more. I really don’t think he learned to enjoy the winning at Texas. Heck, even on 1/4/06 I didn’t see any smiles.
Second, a great recruiter, he’s sitting in a great situation. There is plenty of talent in the Carolinas and aside from Clemson, who’s his competition? Not every 4 and 5 star can go to Clemson, and given the weakness now of the Florida schools, I suspect that many of the FL kids will give NC a good look. That’s a formula for success.
I’ll predict that by the 2021 season NC will be giving Clemson a run for their money.
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
Duke, nice posts. Time will tell.
Winningest Programs of the 2000s:
1. Boise State 112-17
2. Texas 110-19
3. Oklahoma 110-24
4. Ohio State 102-25
5. USC 102-26
6. Florida 100-30
7. LSU 99-31
8. Virginia Tech 99-32
9. Georgia 98-31
10. TCU 95-29
Both Bob Stoops and Mack Brown would have won more in a different conference. However, unfortunately for both, they were in the same conference. The two winningest coaches of the 2000s were in the exact same conference and had to play every year. Jim Tressel did not have a top 10 winningest coach in his conference and still won fewer games than Mack Brown and Bob Stoops, despite dominating the Big 10. Pete Carroll and Frank Beamer also benefited form not having to play any of the top 10 winningest programs that decade. I will note the SEC schools did truly cannibalize each other.
For all the **** talk about how OU owned UT, Mack Brown was 5-6 against Bob Stoops prior to 2010 and 4-6 during the 2000s when they both were on top. It should have been 5-5 if Jamaal Charles does not fumble in to the end zone in 2007.
Things I will put on Mack costing him titles: Not starting Applewhite in 01 against Colorado (although not playing Miami in the title was actually probably better for us, since losing that game, Nebraska has not won a conference title nor played in a major bowl game) and not starting Snead in 06 after McCoy got hurt. However, Mack was not responsible for Colt McCoy getting hurt twice, so that comes down to bad luck.
I will also note, it is kind of funny about Vince Young. People want to give Vince all the credit for 2005 saying because the offense was "letting Vince be Vince". Yet, it is Mack Brown's fault OU shut us out in 2004 for some reason. Kind of seems like if it was all "Vince being Vince" and Vince was shutout, that kind of falls on Vince just as much as anyone else. However, you know, Vince gets credit for the good stuff and Mack credit for the bad....
Anyway a further thing of interest for the bad luck of Mack Brown's career:
Winningest Programs of the 1990s:
1. Florida State Seminoles 109-13-1 (not going to continue this top 10 list just to spite A&M because they are on it).
2. Nebraska 108-16-1.
For Mack Brown's career, in his earlier job at a third rate football program, he got stuck against the most successful coach and program of the 1990s in Florida State. Then he comes to Texas, dismantles the Nebraskas juggernaut one win at a time, and gets stuck in the same conference as the other best coach of the 2000s. We should be thankful we got Mack Brown because if we did not, we may have lost to OU 9 out of 10. Anyway, that is jut actual misfortune.
If I had to compare Mack Brown to anyone, it would be Frank Broyles.
Winningest programs of the 1960s:
1. Alabama 90-16-4
2. Texas 86-19-3
3. Arkansas 82-24-1
Mack Brown is a better version of Frank Broyles. Broyles, unfortunately got stuck with DKR in this conference. Mack Brown was 6-9 against Stoops. Frank Broyles was 5-14 against DKR. Is Frank Broyles a legendary elite coach? Yes, much like Mack Brown. Was better than DKR? No. Does that make him bad? No. Also, want to talk about unlucky, in 1964, the polls declared a national champion before the bowl game. The polls declared Alabama national champs. Arkansas finished as the only undefeated team and Texas (who Arkansas beat) knocked off Joe Namath and Alabama in the Orange Bowl (Im sure if twitter existed then, Alabama would have made the typical SEC excuse they lost to Texas because they did not care or something). Despite Broyles having the best team in the country, he did not win an AP or UPI national title and was only selected by the FWAA which awarded its national title after the bowl games.
What is funny about this is, I have to agree, this is one of the few times in his career at Texas there was poor clock management. I also have to add if Earl Thomas does anything on the last play. For all the hate Gideon gets (and he certainly messed up), Earl Thomas messed up equally on the Crabtree play. I will never to this day understand what exactly Earl Thomas was doing on that play.
However, going back to the "bad luck" post, Mack Brown had to have more bad luck than any elite coach ever as seen. In 2008, Mack Brown had to face four top 15 teams in a row. No team in the history of college football (and I believe this stands to this day, although this could change with the playoff) has beaten four top 15 teams in a row. The man came as close to that as anyone. The fact that this was ignored whereas OU got these games all spaced out, is one of the many reasons the final BCS ranking was BS. It was winnable, but I cannot really hate the man for failing to do something no coach has ever accomplished and getting screwed by the media.
Anyway, Mack Brown was no DKR, that's true, but Texas fans have their heads up their butts when they disparage him. The facts do not actually agree with "he should have won more." DKR and Broyles were not going to win more having each other in their conference. Brown and Stoops were not going to win more having each other in their conference (Texas wins the 1964 national championship if Broyles is not around). Also, Stoops left the minute Texas hired Herman. It seems like he decided he did not want to be a conference with another potentially elite coach again. I will also note that Urban Meyer moved over to Ohio State once Nick Saban showed up in the SEC. It is a lot easier to win national titles/conference titles when you are the only elite coach in the conference. Otherwise, you get treated like Mack Brown if you do not win like there is not another elite coach in the conference (and people forget but the sooners were giving Stoops a hard time when he lost 4 out of 5 to Mack Brown from 2005-2009).
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zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
Great. He had a losing record against Stoops, but it was close. So, let's review: When he lost to Stoops, he got ***-stomped several times. Even when he beat Stoops, he'd get his head up his *** and lose to someone else (Tech in 2008) so he couldn't win the conference. You're right, owe him a lot, put the program back on the map, but wasn't as good as Stoops, and, once Alabama hurt him and Colt, fell apart like someone left at the altar. So, thanks for bringing us back and then dragging us back down so TCU Baylor Ok State were all better than Texas. Seem fair?
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
I'll add: A lot of folks were ticked that Mack didn't win more with all that talent amassed. Winning against everyone else but OU all those years just meant he did what he was supposed to do against the lesser talent (MOST of the time), but would find a way to lay a gigantic egg against some of those lesser talented teams, mainly due to the fact that he was more used car salesman recruiter than a head football coach. More fair?
Yes, a used car salesman recruiter could be the winningest power 5 coach for a decade. That is just silly.
There are a lot of recruiters who do not win 10 games a year or even a national title... believe it or not. You treat Mack Brown like he was Mark Richt. You need to actually like... look at how all other coaches in college football or Texas perform. The Big XII was probably the best conference for most of the 2000s and the Big 12 South was easily the best division. What you seem to be missing is.... it is unlikely anyone in America could have won as much at Texas or OU as Brown and Stoops did in the 2000s... recruiting & coaching. They are the two most successful coaches despite having to coach against each other and in the best division in football and the best conference most years. On top of that, both scheduled difficult non-conference games (and both schools still do) unlike many teams today.
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
Texas is supposed to pull in Top 5 talent and strangely enough Mack did it and allowed Vince to be Vince and won a natty...… I will acknowledge he won a LOT of games. The vitriol comes from 1) the undercoaching and ***-kickings he received from OU; and 2) Leaving us weaker than Baylor and others, that's right, weaker..... I believe I would stop saying mean things about MB if others on this board would stop trying to make him Knute Rockne....but, that's what these discussions are for, so, ok.....
@Htown77 and @zuckercanyon you’re both correct. Mack did great things and disappointing things. Let’s move on...
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