Just how clutch is Kobe?

Kobe, clutch? Not at all.

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You're right. Kurt Rambis, Will Purdue and whoever else you mentioned are in the same class as Kobe.
Not clutch at all.

Dudes, the fact that you are evening trying to convince people that Kobe isn't clutch should tell you something.
I''ve never seen a thread on here debating if Will Purdue is clutch.
You probably have good reason to hate the man but I'm sure he will take 5 rings over not being considered as clutch as Manute Bol.
 
The point of noting that this has been brought up before is that a return to this sounds like an axe to grind. To my ears this all sounds like a lot of wash meant to stir up response, which is why I noted the OP poster shut up last year when Kobe went on a tear. Positing hyperbole in order to combat hyperbole is lame (and I have never tried to say Kobe is ‘clutchest’ or whatever the ****, just that it is stupid to act like he isn’t a clutch player, i.e., someone who is a go to guy in the clutch moments and who delivers ‘often enough’ to continue getting the opportunity to do so.

Part of the problem is, as noted, there is no great way to decide what it means to be clutch. To me, wins and losses, including rings, are part of the equation as the stats are aimed at game-winning plays in one way or another and because winners don’t go to losers in crunch time, so if you have a team that wins a lot and they keep going to one guy during crunch, it suggests that he is considered clutch by the people who count most. The author of the article can try to blow up discontent on the Laker bench and locker room, but the ball goes to Kobe every time for reasons that go beyond Bryant’s desire to have the ball. Wins aren’t directly correlative but, in a discussion where the point being argued isn’t clear (save to say that it is in some ways subjective), I think it is okay to take into account some of the implications of decisions being made by bench and roster when the clutch time comes. It seems to me that, in trying to decide if Marino is a better QB than Roethlisberger, it makes sense to address some of the intangibles, i.e., what kind of leader he is, whether his team-mates want him with the ball in the crunch, etc. Super Bowl rings count, but as I have made clear many times, I don’t think it is the end of the argument.

If the question is 'is Kobe clutch' I find a negative answer to be stupid.

If the question is 'should Kobe shoot as much late in the game as he does?' then I can see arguments against and for. Fine.

If the question is 'is he the clutchest' I would say I am not sure how to accommodate that question, but he is clutch enough for me and nearly everyone whose livlihood directly falls from the game of hoops, not just those on his team, either.

Even the article linked struggles to exactly note what is being demonstrated outside of the fact that Kobe takes alot of late shots in close games and makes them only at a rate that is average (eventhough he takes them much more than almost anyone else -- it is likely that if other took as many such shots their percentage would plummet and his relative stature would rise). He never really addresses why Kobe keeps getting the last shot so often and why most everyone who does not have a similar superstar would have him taking the shot rather than one of the other superstars. I mean, aside from the fact that he takes many more of these shots than the others, which depresses his relative standing for various reasons, the street/media reputation that exists amongst whoever might be saying he is 'most' clutch doesn't drive front offices or the bench. Meanwhile, at least one of the sources the article’s author uses (http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/clutchiness/) puts up much more in depth info into a grid and then, after noting that great PGs (something the Lakers have not had during Kobe’s tenure) help themselves and their teams at the top of the list, he specifically notes that Kobe is ‘definitely’ clutch (while Durant definitely is not, by his calculus). Go figure.

There seems to be a conflation of clutchness or whatever with efficiency. I don't argue that predictability isn't an enemy of offensive efficiency, but being predictable because you are an obvious first option doesn't seem a very good way of describing a lack of clutchness or the ability to perform at high levels in the crunch. They give him the ball, in crunch time, even when doubled, because he is not clutch? In fact, that could easily be taken to mean that he is so good that he must be given the ball even though this obvious drawback is in play.

Is being a ball hog a lack of clutchness? I don't know. Can it be problematic? Clearly. Is it a relative problem the Lakers are or should be concerned with? They seem to be doing well enough. Regardless, I am no convinced that being a ball hog reduces one’s stature as a clutch player, especially when no metric incuding unselfish plays has been put up.

Maybe he should shoot less and this would open up better shots for him, which would improve his averages. Would this lead to more wins (assuming wins are relevant)? Maybe, maybe not. If he passes instead of taking a shot whose level of difficulty is stratospheric, and the other guy then misses, such may make Kobe's percentages look better but does it make him more clutch or less?
 
Why start a new thread to rehash all of this again?

Kobe Is Clutch

Stats don't account for clutch moments in games. Stats don't account for how teams defend a player. Stats don't account for half court shots. Stats don't account for important games. Stats don't account for games against rivals. Stats don't account for single, double or triple teams. Stats don't acocunt for fouls. Stats don't account for execution from teamates. Stats don't account for the plays drawn up by coaches. Stats don't account for clutch D. Stats don't account for clutch rebounds. Stats don't define when where what is actually clutch.

Watch the games. Watch the players. And judge for yourself.

I try to watch as many Laker games as I can. I think Kobe is clutch.

Most basketball players, gms and coaches, many of whom watch plenty of games and film, and have to actually play against the players (kobe) in question, happen to agree that he is very clutch.
 
I thought kobe's game last night was a pretty clutchy performance, and it had little to do with the final possession of the game.
 
Stat

I am not trying to say Kobe or Pierce or Durant or whomever is good or great. I am saying that the notion of being clutch is much broader than the definitions that seem to be privileged by those with an axe to grind regarding Kobe Bryant and whoever might want to say he is the 'clutchest.'

-Willingness to take the shot when just behind, tied, OR just ahead.
-Defense in the crunch.
-Passing.
-Team-mate perception and that of others in the profession, especially noting that a good/winning team probably has others who can shoot, so if one guy continually gets the rock in the crunch the reasons need to be hashed out or at least guessed at.
-Efficiency of team O.
-Shooting percentage in the crunch, with note that the better the player the more likely he is to shoot a late shot and thereby run into issues of predictability.
-Ability to make one's own shot.
-Reputation, which may be part of why he gets the rock while also needing some adjustment for statistical consideration.

These are all aspects of being clutch that have been discussed. There are probably more aspects of the discussion that I am missing (like ability to get to the foul line in the crunch). I tried to link one of the OP article's references because it was pretty thorough. It included info that made the OP article's chart look positively thin.

arturogalletti.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/clutchiness/

Kobe is a dick, is likely not much cared for by his team-mates, and is possibly a rapist. On the whole, he is also a clutch baller, all things considered.
 
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