Is this what we've become?

[NJlonghorn]

Like what? Statements like this start with the premise, which we are all just supposed to accept as fact, that all races have the same propensity to commit violent crime. This is demonstrably not true.

I don't start with the premise that all races have the same propensity to commit violent crime. In fact, I agree with you that such a claim would be "demonstrably not true". But this does not undercut the claim that the justice system is unfair to blacks.

The POTUS did say that racism is rampant in the police force. This is BS.

IIRC, the AG's report regarding the Ferguson, MO police department said that racism was rampant. Other than that, my recollection of comments by President Obama and his administration over the years are much more tepid than "rampant racism". He cites statistics (often, but not always, misleading) about how blacks are pulled over more often, searched more often, arrested more often, convicted more often, etc. He points out that this leads to distrust in the black community, which then leads to violence on occasion. He says that we need to have a conversation about these things, and calls for us to address them head on.

I agree with the President that these issues need more attention, and that talking about them is important. I also agree with the President that resorting to violence is unjustifiable, and that those who do so should be both condemned and punished.

I often don't agree with what President Obama has to say about these issues or potential ways to address them. But to blame the situation itself on him is silly.

If they are more inclined to suspect/pull over/arrest blacks, it's not because they are racist. It's because they have overwhelmingly more negative interactions with black males.

I'm sure I'm misreading your comment, but it sounds like you are saying that it is okay to pull a black man over in part because he is a member of a race that is more likely to commit a crime.

Suppose two drivers (one black, one white) are travelling at the same speed, but above the legal limit. Would it be okay in your mind for the cop to pull the black driver over and let the white driver go, because the black driver is statistically more likely to be a criminal?

 

[NJlonghorn]

Nobody reasonable can disagree with this statement if taken literally, but I'm not sure I could call it "moderate." It's very loaded and implies a lot.

I guess that depends on whether getting pulled over for DWB really happens in a statistically meaningful number of cases. If so, there is nothing wrong with pointing it out.

 

[Htown77]

Isn't the issue how the justice system treats the poor?

Issue? The entire point of all "justice" systems in human history is to protect the property owners' property and ownership from those that do not own such property. That's the point of "justice systems."

 

[mb227]

Suppose two drivers (one black, one white) are travelling at the same speed, but above the legal limit. Would it be okay in your mind for the cop to pull the black driver over and let the white driver go, because the black driver is statistically more likely to be a criminal?

You presume, incorrectly, that the officer is even going to KNOW the race of the driver. Not all traffic stops for speeding or other moving violations came from the officer having a view of the driver at the time the violation was observed.

I've also seen some who were adept at pulling over BOTH vehicles in such a scenario.

Granted, more often than not, someone skates and someone gets to try and sell the sob story to the court. But I do not believe that even a slight majority of such cases see the minority driver ticketed because the officer elected to pull the minority over and let whitey skate...

 

[mchammer]

More data:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/07...ice-shootings-data-reveals-surprising-result/

 

[Horn6721]

mc
The stats from that link are astounding.
They will not be seen by BLM activists
but they should be

 

[NJlonghorn]

You presume, incorrectly, that the officer is even going to KNOW the race of the driver. Not all traffic stops for speeding or other moving violations came from the officer having a view of the driver at the time the violation was observed.

No, I didn't presume that. I asked about a hypothetical situation in which a cop uses race as a factor in determining which driver to pull over. I understand you don't think that happens often. But I'm sure you'd admit that it happens at least on rare occasion. When it does happen, is it appropriate?

 

[NJlonghorn]

More data:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/07...ice-shootings-data-reveals-surprising-result/

mc
The stats from that link are astounding.
They will not be seen by BLM activists
but they should be

That's a good read, and somewhat compelling. It shows, as I've been saying all along, that many of the BLM complaints are unreasonable.

I would note, though, that the data seem to be based solely on police reports, which are recorded from the police officer's perspective. Saying who was and who wasn't "resisting arrest" is somewhat subjective and the data must be viewed with a grain of salt or two.

This is why body cameras are such a critical part of the solution. I believe that every police car should be equipped with multiple cameras capturing a 360-degree panorama 24-7, and that every officer should have a chest camera. This would go a long way towards detecting whatever bias may exist, rooting out false claims, and increasing trust.

 

[Phil Elliott]

I'm sure I'm misreading your comment, but it sounds like you are saying that it is okay to pull a black man over in part because he is a member of a race that is more likely to commit a crime.

I am saying it is understandable that officers may detain black males more often than white males based on their on-the-job experience. This cannot be the only reason, of course, but I am willing to give some leeway here based on experience. Many others call this racism - I do not.

I recall an incident here in Austin about 10 years ago (or probably more, time flies) where an APD officer saw a black male driving a Ford King Ranch pickup in the Fiesta parking lot. He noted that one taillight was broken out and pulled the guy over. He later admitted that he first noticed the truck (before seeing the busted taillight) based on his opinion that such a vehicle is not typically driven by black men and not seen around the Fiesta. The combination of those 2 factors caused him to stop the guy. Turns out the truck was stolen and the driver was armed, so he was arrested. The Police Chief at that time (this was before Acevedo) accused the officer of racial profiling and suspended him. On top of that, this white officer was married to a black woman. Not much of a racist in my view. His experience told him something was amiss, and he was right.

I also agree with mb227 that in "pull over" situations, the officer often does not know the person's race when they flip on the lights.

 

[mb227]

No, I didn't presume that. I asked about a hypothetical situation in which a cop uses race as a factor in determining which driver to pull over. I understand you don't think that happens often. But I'm sure you'd admit that it happens at least on rare occasion. When it does happen, is it appropriate?

You are correct that I do not believe this is a frequent occurrence. As to whether, in this specific hypothetical, I believe it would be appropriate that the non-white driver gets pulled over, I would defer a decision/opinion until I knew what the decision had been based upon. After all, in some instances, there can be valid safety considerations (vehicles in line with each other which means higher speed to get to the lead vehicle) or visual cues on a vehicle that give rise to violations of the vehicle codes beyond the simple act of speeding.

Cops use discretion. I could claim I was singled out when a Trooper had the choice between pulling over me when I was in the XK8 instead of the hooptie that had the gerbils pedaling frantically to try and keep up with me...but if I am in violation of the law, then the stop is what it is- a traffic stop precipitated by MY violation of the law.

Pro-tip: follow the law and stops are not apt to occur...if you DO get pulled over, don't be a smartass and you likely have no problems during the stop. After all, we don't seem to have any sort of a rash of police shootings that involve middle to upper class non-whites- but that fact isn't something the #BLM people want to hear.

I still remember when Garnet Coleman tried whining about being singled out because he was black...the agency that pulled him over released the video, complete with all audio and *surprise* it was Coleman that was the problem child in the interaction. And yes, the sheriff's deputy was white, which had much to do with why Coleman tried to make it out to be about race.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I guess that depends on whether getting pulled over for DWB really happens in a statistically meaningful number of cases. If so, there is nothing wrong with pointing it out.

I'm open to looking at data, but I don't buy it. Do I think blacks get pulled over more often? Yes. But do I think it's happening regularly with no underlying offense (a true DWB situation)? No.