Impeachment

OUBubba said:
Fact check: Taxpayer burden for Trump's golfing is hard to pin down

Trump is 1-64 in court. Is that insufficient?
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The golfing issue is so partisan and stupid. I said so under Obama and still say so. It's always expensive when the President travels. There's a huge security and media contingent. They travel very expensively and stay in fancy places in their fanciest rooms. It's going to get expensive very fast. $141M sounds like huge money. We spend that much everytime Nancy Pelosi farts and gets trouser chili. It's not significant, and it's brought up entirely for partisan reasons, just as it was under Obama.
 
I rarely comment on politics anymore, but I find this impeachment to be one of the dumbest political things in American history. Trump is gone in less than a week. This is like putting a dead man on trial. Rather than focus on student debt, the environment, ending endless wars (oh wait, we just passed a horrible defense bill that proclaimed endless wars forever so I guess ending those is not happening), natural resources, our national debt, infrastructure, healthcare reform or NUMEROUS real problems that actually affect Americans, our Congress will instead focus their time on a futile, pointless, petty vindictive gesture proving just how ineffectual they have become.

Our democracy is ultimately our Congress. When our Congress becomes unable to pass laws to attempt to solve our problems, only manage to pass corrupt laws against the common good (see the endless wars defense bill) and otherwise focus their time on petty, moot, pointless nonsense like this impeachment, our democracy fails.

I usually respect other people's opinions. However, this may be the first time I have truly had to tell my friends that support this impeachment to "get their heads out of their ****es." The response I have gotten is "this is important to 'get trump' and tarnish his legacy." I have tried to explain it does not "get Trump" mostly since he will already be out of office and to a lesser extent given they are unlikely to get 2/3rds anyway. This also will not tarnish his legacy. When historians have looked back on EVERY failed impeachment in US history, those doing the impeaching look bad.

The Radical Republicans look petty and corrupt with respect to Andrew Johnson. One of the heroes in JFK's "Profiles in Courage" was the key senator that voted AGAINST convicting Andrew Johnson.

20+ years later the impeachment of Bill Clinton looks petty, partisan, futile, divisive and pointless. I am in the camp that Clinton did lie and was guilty, but I still find that impeachment to have been a useless waste and divisive.

People have already moved on and forgotten Russia and Trump's first impeachment. It has already been judged a failure and waste of time. Historians will look back and see it as pointless distraction that took America's and the government's attention away from the emerging threat of coronavirus.

This impeachment will be seen at the dumbest of them all due to its extreme pointlessness given Trump is already out of office. Historians will not look back and say "Trump was screwed up." They will say "the entire government was screwed up, ineffective and a failure." I am amazed at how shortsighted the party obsessed with being "on the right side of history" is with this impeachment.

Anyway, @Mr. Deez Ive made an appearance.
 
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Htown77 said:
I rarely comment on politics anymore, but I find this impeachment to be one of the dumbest political things in American history. Trump is gone in less than a week. This is like putting a dead man on trial. Rather than focus on student debt, the environment, ending endless wars (oh wait, we just passed a horrible defense bill that proclaimed endless wars forever so I guess ending those is not happening), natural resources, our national debt, infrastructure, healthcare reform or NUMEROUS real problems that actually affect Americans, our Congress will instead focus their time on a futile, pointless, petty vindictive gesture proving just how ineffectual they have become.

Our democracy is ultimately our Congress. When our Congress becomes unable to pass laws to attempt to solve our or problems, only manage to pass corrupt laws against the common good (see the endless wars defense bill) and otherwise focus their time on petty, moot, pointless nonsense like this impeachment, our democracy fails.

I usually respect other people's opinions. However, this may be the first time I have truly had to tell my friends that support this impeachment to "get their heads out of their ****es." The response I have gotten is "this is important to 'get trump' and tarnish his legacy." I have tried to explain it does not "get Trump" mostly since he will already be out of office and to a lesser extent given they are unlikely to get 2/3rds anyway. This also will not tarnish his legacy. When historians have looked back on EVERY failed impeachment in US history, those doing the impeaching look bad.

The Radical Republicans look petty and corrupt with respect to Andrew Johnson. One of the heroes in JFK's "Profiles in Courage" was the key senator that voted AGAINST convicting Andrew John.

20+ years later the impeachment of Bill Clinton looks petty, partisan, futile, divisive and pointless. I am in the camp that Clinton did lie and was guilty, but I still find that impeachment to have been a useless waste and divisive.

People have already moved on and forgotten Russia and Trump's first impeachment. It has already been judged a failure and waste of time. Historians will look back and see it as pointless distraction that took America's and the government's attention away from the emerging threat of coronavirus.

This impeachment will be seen at the dumbest of them all due to its extreme pointlessness given Trump is already out of office. Historians will not look back and say "Trump was screwed up." They will say "the entire government was screwed up, ineffcitve and a failure." I am amazed at how shortsighted the party obsessed with being "on the right side of history" is with this impeachment.

Anyway, @Mr. Deez Ive made an appearance.
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So where does Nikki Haley get blamed in this?

I'll admit that this has a bit of a Cadaver Synod feel to it. However, I think there's a legitimate interest in keeping Trump from holding office again and punishing him for pitching conspiracy theories in an attempt to invade the province of the Legislature, which led to violence on Capitol Hill. I don't use the term "incite," because as a matter of law he did not. However, what he said over the last two months sure as hell was a major cause of it.
 
Mr. Deez said:
So where does Nikki Haley get blamed in this?

I'll admit that this has a bit of a Cadaver Synod feel to it. However, I think there's a legitimate interest in keeping Trump from holding office again and punishing him for pitching conspiracy theories in an attempt to invade the province of the Legislature, which led to violence on Capitol Hill. I don't use the term "incite," because as a matter of law he did not. However, what he said over the last two months sure as hell was a major cause of it.
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Trump should be censured for his behavior since the election. Patently obvious, but this is all political theatre.
 
Oh no We wouldn't want Trump to hold office again. Can't have those minorities bettering themselves with best employment numbers in history, record number iof minorities starting businesses, creating opportunities for people who served their sentences, bringing our military home so they aren't getting killed in endless wars,helping defuse years old tensions in the Middle, record stock markets resulting in healthy 401ks for millions etc etc.
God no WE wouldn't want Trump to hold office . Orange man bad, did bad tweets.

If Trump should be censured what should be done to all who aided in the cheating?
 
mchammer said:
Trump should be censured for his behavior since the election. Patently obvious, but this is all political theatre.
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Two things can be true at once. He should be barred from future office, and Democrats are Impeaching him for political theater.
 
One thing is clear. Impeachment should be stricken from the Constitution as its impotent. Between Nixon, Clinton and now Trump we've seen the parties will always choose themselves over country.
 
Interesting that Deez thinks mentioning President Trump's accomplishments are funny.
I wonder if all the minorities who got jobs due to Trump's policies or any member of our military brought home due to Trump think it was funny
Easy to laugh when you don't have to worry about getting a job or worry about coming home safely.
 
, I think there's a legitimate interest in keeping Trump from holding office again and punishing him for pitching conspiracy theories in an attempt to invade the province of the Legislature, which led to violence on Capitol Hill. I don't use the term "incite," because as a matter of law he did not. However, what he said over the last two months sure as hell was a major cause of it.
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Trump should be censured for his behavior since the election.
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One thing is clear. Impeachment should be stricken from the Constitution as its impotent. Between Nixon, Clinton and now Trump we've seen the parties will always choose themselves over country.
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1. I get the public office angle, but I do not think he has merited that. He is also old and I am not sure he would run in 2024 anyway. Also, I think people (the rioters) are responsible for their own actions. Trump never commanded a mob to attack the capitol. In fact, I cannot say Trump has done anything more than the democrats after 2016 (4 years of claiming the russians stole the election/Trump was not legitimate), not to mention stoking the BLM riots. The rhetoric in this county has been in a bad place for a long time. It would be one thing if we were going after everyone and treating likes "alike". However, not everyone is being punished... just Trump. You already agree he did not legally incite the mob, but I still cannot hold him responsible lowering the standard unless we hold every politician responsible for every nut that does something nutty in their name. I actually find this impeachment to be the rest of congress confirming they are "on trump's level" of futile pettiness. The democrats also have basically said they hate Trump more than trying to move the country forward with their own agenda.

I also think the real story in the capitol was the security failure. That mob was not that large and from when I have visited the capitol post 9/11, should have been easily repelled with property security. That mob getting in was either utter incompetence or on allowed. I would be fine with going after Trump if he allowed it, but there does not seem to be any evidence that he was responsible for the security failure at this time (I am assuming if there was, the media would be all over it). That is where the investigation should be focused on and where criminal charges should come from.

2. I would be fine with a censure. It seems appropriate. Especially since removing Trump from office after he is out of office is dumb.

3. The problem is that impeachment has only ever been abused for political purposes. All four impeachments (Johnson, Clinton, Trump and Trump) have been just political attacks. It has never been brought against a president for genuine crimes. We should not do away with impeachment. It just needs to stop being abused.

I have never had pro or anti Trump derangement syndrome many americans who love or hate him have had. Trump was not our worst or best president. In fact, for the most part, in my lifetime, from Bush to Clinton to W to Obama to Trump, our country is mostly the same. The only truly significant changes I have seen from our government are 1. Endless wars/surveillance state/increased security from 9/11 and 2. Healthcare has been a bigger mess post obamacare. Corona may bring some long term lasting change, but it is too early to tell. I would actually say America has been politically stagnant the past 30 years and since Trump ultimately did little to change that, he does not deserve the love and hate he receives from his supporters and detractors. There is no need to continue to spend the time of Congress on him.

I am concerned about our tech giants going around the world (not just in the USA) and deciding who gets to talk on their platforms and shutting down elected officials they do not like. They are going full China. That is a far bigger threat to freedom and democracy than anything Trump ever did.
 
Also, in the long term, the Democrats are doing us a favor.
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Actually, the craziest thing to me is that they value this so much, they are willing to potentially derail or at least delay Biden's first 100 days!
 
Horn6721 said:
Interesting that Deez thinks mentioning President Trump's accomplishments are funny.
I wonder if all the minorities who got jobs due to Trump's policies or any member of our military brought home due to Trump think it was funny
Easy to laugh when you don't have to worry about getting a job or worry about coming home safely.
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I don't think the accomplishments are funny. I think it's funny but also sad that you deploy the same cliched diversion that Bill Clinton's unprincipled hack defenders deployed and that we condemned. A president isn't supposed to get a pass to do bad things just because the economy was strong during his term in office.

OJ Simpson was a hell of a running back and to anybody who wasn't his ex-wife or her boyfriend, he was a nice guy. That doesn't mean it was ok for him to murder people.
 
Htown77 said:
Actually, the craziest thing to me is that they value this so much, they are willing to potentially derail or at least delay Biden's first 100 days!
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It's irrational. But as Deez said, they are doing Republicans a favor. Dems are letting their hatred of Trump push them into an unwinnable scenario. I cannot believe that Biden didn't do more to prevent this situation. Going to be fun to watch. :popcorn:
 
@Htown77, great write up. Just one question, though. If, and he didn't, Trump did not incite the rioters to violence, what are you saying he should be censured for?
 
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