This! Duke is my new favorite poster ...
HOW did we get here?
- Thread starter TEXnSEATTLE
- Start date
You guys are reaching now...
OU before Stoops? You've got to go back farther than that to find them irrelevant. And Mack wasnt good enough for us, remember??
Guys...I'm going to say this one last time and then drop it. Coaching is very important...probably the most important aspect involved.
But it isnt everything and other things matter greatly. All your examples prove is that coaching makes a difference...especially when an elite coach is involved. In no way does it disprove my position. I never said coaching isnt important.
***I'm a big believer in the whole "he could take ours and beat his, beat ours with his" or whatever.***
But, sorry...Ohio St. has been way more relevant than us through 4 coaches now and over a few decades, LSU through 3, OU through 3. And plenty of teams who've had multiple coaches I'd rank more consistently relevant (say, in last 20 years) than Texas.
If you want clarity again on my position, look again at Creeks earlier post. He says it better.
Some places make it easier and some make it harder. A truly great coach (a 2%er..Saban, Dabo, Meyer, etc) could come in here and make a huge impact and probably still win big, but outside of that...Do you really think Matt Rhule would be Matt Rhule here? (First of all he wouldn't be asked here!) Matt Campbell? Franklin? Riley? Fleck? What would Snyder have been here? Or Patterson? Come on guys...
You all talk about these guys like "why cant we get a guy like that!" SMH
Hello...maybe it's not just the guy. Maybe some of them aren't even that great. Maybe it is just a real good fit made good by a number of factors that all play a part. Why do people on here talk like they must be great, because...they can come in and win there.
You have no idea what they'd do here. The evidence suggests they might be better somewhere else. Herman was.
Pick one of the top 5 elite coaches and bring them here. Ok, I'm in...Do it. I bet it will help greatly. But, I'd argue we'd still make it harder on them. We certainly don't do ourselves any favors.
If you're honest...I think you would have to acknowledge that it seems some programs you just expect the next coach to plug in and be successful and continue a general winning trend while other programs... well...
Look, I am not saying we cannot win with our current "culture". I am not saying coaching isn't of utmost importance. All I am saying is
1. Some places make it easier than others
2. I personally see some major issues with the overall "culture" surrounding our program that work against what we'd all like to see happen on the football field.
3. I repeat...coaching is of the utmost importance (and ours needs to improve greatly)
I'm done.
Respect you guys and your positions and love this university and Longhorn football
OU before Stoops? You've got to go back farther than that to find them irrelevant. And Mack wasnt good enough for us, remember??
Guys...I'm going to say this one last time and then drop it. Coaching is very important...probably the most important aspect involved.
But it isnt everything and other things matter greatly. All your examples prove is that coaching makes a difference...especially when an elite coach is involved. In no way does it disprove my position. I never said coaching isnt important.
***I'm a big believer in the whole "he could take ours and beat his, beat ours with his" or whatever.***
But, sorry...Ohio St. has been way more relevant than us through 4 coaches now and over a few decades, LSU through 3, OU through 3. And plenty of teams who've had multiple coaches I'd rank more consistently relevant (say, in last 20 years) than Texas.
If you want clarity again on my position, look again at Creeks earlier post. He says it better.
Some places make it easier and some make it harder. A truly great coach (a 2%er..Saban, Dabo, Meyer, etc) could come in here and make a huge impact and probably still win big, but outside of that...Do you really think Matt Rhule would be Matt Rhule here? (First of all he wouldn't be asked here!) Matt Campbell? Franklin? Riley? Fleck? What would Snyder have been here? Or Patterson? Come on guys...
You all talk about these guys like "why cant we get a guy like that!" SMH
Hello...maybe it's not just the guy. Maybe some of them aren't even that great. Maybe it is just a real good fit made good by a number of factors that all play a part. Why do people on here talk like they must be great, because...they can come in and win there.
You have no idea what they'd do here. The evidence suggests they might be better somewhere else. Herman was.
Pick one of the top 5 elite coaches and bring them here. Ok, I'm in...Do it. I bet it will help greatly. But, I'd argue we'd still make it harder on them. We certainly don't do ourselves any favors.
If you're honest...I think you would have to acknowledge that it seems some programs you just expect the next coach to plug in and be successful and continue a general winning trend while other programs... well...
Look, I am not saying we cannot win with our current "culture". I am not saying coaching isn't of utmost importance. All I am saying is
1. Some places make it easier than others
2. I personally see some major issues with the overall "culture" surrounding our program that work against what we'd all like to see happen on the football field.
3. I repeat...coaching is of the utmost importance (and ours needs to improve greatly)
I'm done.
Respect you guys and your positions and love this university and Longhorn football
Last edited:
AC
2,500+ Posts
We lost 1WR,2OL (2games), 1TE, 1RB (Whittington). I do agree our coaching on offense sucked but we hired TB! That should be changed going into 2020.
Galvestonhorn
250+ Posts
You don’t hate them any worse than those two dumb asses hate the University of Texas.
they should be posting on here with their idiotic analysis.
they should be posting on here with their idiotic analysis.
What you haven't proven is that our culture is any different than LSU, tOSU, etc... All these teams expect to win. All these teams try and hire top tier coaches. Some get lucky and get a hit on the 1st try. Some don't. And it's just not an exact science. I'd of given my left nut to get Petterson in here and now Washington is 6-5 this season. Tom is right. Winning is hard. But there are paths to winning. 1st and foremost, is to get great lineman on both sides of the ball. When we were winning big we had superior talent on both sides of the ball (04-06) and at least on D side of the ball (08-09). The last stud edge rushers we had was Rak/Kindle. Jeffcoat was good, but would not consider him elite. We haven't had a superior OLine since 06 when JC went for 1700 yds. Then once you get great lineman, you need a great QB. Wandered in the desert for a decade there.You guys are reaching now...
OU before Stoops? You've got to go back farther than that to find them irrelevant. And Mack wasnt good enough for us, remember??
Guys...I'm going to say this one last time and then drop it. Coaching is very important...probably the most important aspect involved.
But it isnt everything and other things matter greatly. All your examples prove is that coaching makes a difference...especially when an elite coach is involved. In no way does it disprove my position. I never said coaching isnt important.
***I'm a big believer in the whole "he could take ours and beat his, beat ours with his" or whatever.***
But, sorry...Ohio St. has been way more relevant than us through 4 coaches now and over a few decades, LSU through 3, OU through 3. And plenty of teams who've had multiple coaches I'd rank more consistently relevant (say, in last 20 years) than Texas.
If you want clarity again on my position, look again at Creeks earlier post. He says it better.
Some places make it easier and some make it harder. A truly great coach (a 2%er..Saban, Dabo, Meyer, etc) could come in here and make a huge impact and probably still win big, but outside of that...Do you really think Matt Rhule would be Matt Rhule here? (First of all he wouldn't be asked here!) Matt Campbell? Franklin? Riley? Fleck? What would Snyder have been here? Or Patterson? Come on guys...
You all talk about these guys like "why cant we get a guy like that!" SMH
Hello...maybe it's not just the guy. Maybe some of them aren't even that great. Maybe it is just a real good fit made good by a number of factors that all play a part. Why do people on here talk like they must be great, because...they can come in and win there.
You have no idea what they'd do here. The evidence suggests they might be better somewhere else. Herman was.
Pick one of the top 5 elite coaches and bring them here. Ok, I'm in...Do it. I bet it will help greatly. But, I'd argue we'd still make it harder on them. We certainly don't do ourselves any favors.
If you're honest...I think you would have to acknowledge that it seems some programs you just expect the next coach to plug in and be successful and continue a general winning trend while other programs... well...
Look, I am not saying we cannot win with our current "culture". I am not saying coaching isn't of utmost importance. All I am saying is
1. Some places make it easier than others
2. I personally see some major issues with the overall "culture" surrounding our program that work against what we'd all like to see happen on the football field.
3. I repeat...coaching is of the utmost importance (and ours needs to improve greatly)
I'm done.
Respect you guys and your positions and love this university and Longhorn football
Bottom line is we've lost because we didn't have great players and great coaches. One makes the other better and vice versa. I just don't see anything different in ATX than I see in any other big time college football town.
Well if Reggie Bush and Matt Leinhart said it, then...
You're right, Wadster...Hard thing to prove. It's easy to scream it's all on the coaches, though...too easy.
Either way..I like your post...reasonable.
and usually accurate. This example is no different.
I can't determine why you think/feel/believe the fandome really makes/breaks the program.
Is the difference in 2019 Horns and 1969 Horns ... the fans?
I haven't looked lately, but the University of Texas Longhorn franchise is the most profitable ... or certainly top 5 profitable. That means FANS. Suma Cumma Loud Piled-high Deepers ... and TShirt fans.
The metric outlining the point at which the stadium is full or has as many as it's goin to get ... (come early, stay late???) yeah, that's not driving the W/L either.
I only saw the 2nd half of the rainy Tech game. Seems the team played much better than the past 4 games. But TTech is struggling, too. I'm not calling for Herman's job ... yet. But I don't have this delusion that the fans have affected the team's performance, either.
Shaark....We've been on the same and right side of a couple hub-hubs together in the past. Obviously, we see some things differently here. I don't really appreciate you insinuating I am delusional just because we disagree. I'm guessing you, like me, probably have enough time to have a little fun and banter about some football opinions...but not for any real heated or personal dialogue. I'll assume you didnt mean it the way I am tempted to take it...I've viewed you as quite reasonable in the past... though I think your missing a little here, both in fact and in tone. Seems as though I've struck a nerve with you personally on this issue.
Factually, this isn't 1969. It is 2019. Players/young people are different. Coaches are people and people are different. The atmosphere surrounding college football is different. Technology and its influence are different. And society and culture-at-large are different. If you dont think there is a lot more that goes into establishing winning, sustainable, effective culture around football programs than just having a great coach, then I wont call you any names but I'll tell you I think you are wrong. That's all I ever said, so if you keep pushing the issue I can only conclude you do not believe this (or am I misunderstanding you?)...You think these things have no sway?? I never once singled out just fans...I mentioned fans (alumni, tshirts, media, community, students) as one part of a larger culture and environment surrounding a program, and I alluded to the fact that they don't make or break a program entirely..just that they play a role and may make things harder or easier.
Why don't we not fight about it and settle on this...
You think I'm delusional and I think you are naive.
Or
We are misunderstanding one another
You choose.
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Mike the Texan
250+ Posts
Almost every game this year, we went for 4 and short in the 1st half when we were almost guaranteed a field goal. Every time, we ran the exact same ****** play and we're either stuffed for no gain or lost yardage. Bad play calling and pathetic execution every time. That is all on the coaching staff.
Bad coaching.
- Mike
Bad coaching.
- Mike
Without any specific criticisms/suggestions, your argument is just circular. What exactly is the problem with our "culture"? How would you suggest fixing it? I tried to read between the lines, but the only thing I could come up with is that certain successful schools over the decades are known/suspected to run dirty programs. Are you actually suggesting that we need to start paying our players? Because if that's your brilliant solution, I don't want us to have any part of it. I'd rather hold out for the occasional messianic coach and play with our integrity intact (and occasionally prevail over the dirty programs like we did USC in the 2005 national championship game).
Who are these edge rushers? Skill wise, Graham is the closest, but Jeffcoat, Kindle, Rak, Robison were studs. Those guys were going to get to the QB regardless. Brackens too. Guy was unblockable.
Perhaps I'm the one who mashed a button? I didn't call you delusional:
this is what I wrote. Perhaps I should have written it "I don't have this delusional idea ..."
I first balked about your calling-out the fans for the performance of the team and you resisted. That tells me you meant it. Perhaps yours was out of frustration and I didn't allow enough space for venting. For that I apologize.
But you're right 1969 and 2019 are worlds different ... and the most significant difference with respect to the performance of the football team ... is the coach/staff.
Darrel wasn't perfect, but he demonstrated ... let me repeat ... DEMONSTRATED mastery of the game. Herman, to date, has presented mounds of Piled-high Deeper nonsense to give the appearance he understands the game. He has NOT demonstrated mastery.
The coach is the single most important piece of that array you listed in trying to diminish the coach's importance.
The ONLY football team I can remember having an idiot coach and still won its conference/top champion ... '94 Cowboys. But even gunsmoke knew enough to leave Aikman and his men ... ALONE.
We don't have Aikman and his men ... we have great athletes who have demonstrated themselves on the HS gridiron and sporadically on this squad ... we STILL need a great coach. Right now, Herman is not that. Beck is not that. Even Orlando has proven he's not that.
I regret you took my statement about delusion personal ... but if you'll read it more carefully, I didn't call you delusional. The IDEA is delusional.
Thanks for the opportunity to respond.
ShAArk92
... and if you receive my flame of PhDs personal ... that's on you my friend.
PhDs who aren't Piled-high Deepers , know ... and don't take offense. They know as well as anyone there are pretender doctorates. Those are the ones who throw the most chaff, the real ones are not intimidated by the slur.
PhDs who aren't Piled-high Deepers , know ... and don't take offense. They know as well as anyone there are pretender doctorates. Those are the ones who throw the most chaff, the real ones are not intimidated by the slur.
Some misunderstanding here, Giveem...
I have no idea how you came up with this from my posts. In no way would I ever espouse such a notion. No way...no how. My apologies for any confusion I may have created.
There are quite a few components to my view, and I can assure you all are virtuous.
As for the circular argument notion...I have tried hard to avoid this, though without devoting my whole life to the subject (seems like it at the moment), extrapolating via hornsfans posts succinctly and effectively an (already acknowledged) difficult to prove observation isn't easy.
I'm just trying to help. Others share my observations/views. You won't here them as loud because, well...look how well the message is received. I think if you read all my posts (probably have better things to do) you'll find me quite reasonable, even if you disagree with my overarching sentiment.
Coaching is still the major component right now, but it isn't all that's got us here. That's my message and I share it only to help ...out of care and concern for the school and football.
And whatever we do, I pray it always be on the up and up and that virtue, honor and integrity be prioritized.
Hook 'em
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Shaark
Thanks for the reply.
Like I said, you and I have been together on the right side of a couple flare ups in the past, and I figure if we talked about this over barbecue there would be less misunderstanding...but, alas, we just have HF.
I dont mind touting a view that's unpopular if I believe it can help something or someone..especially things/people I care for. That's all that is going on here on my side.
You make great points...I disagree with very few of them. I am just focused on one aspect of this I believe people should consider, but it isnt my intent to do it to the exclusion of other truths or to say it negates or trumps them even. I just think it (all influences/environment/fans/attitudes/culture etc surrounding a football program) does make a difference, and apparently you think it has much less or little effect.
**** I already acknowledged that I would put coaching first (but let me be clear I believe the other factors can make this easier or harder so they do have a relationship)...apparently you didnt see it, I didnt make it clear, or you still disagree.
I agree with your comments on THs lack of demonstrated mastery (and it needs to improve greatly) and agree he bears great responsibility in this.
I know you and I are both passionate defenders of truth. I'm cool with you and appreciate you and your views.
In the end, I think friction like this within any entity (What is our entity/role exactly?!? Lol) is healthy and productive.
And we can firmly agree on BS (let's just call him that) because...well...his initials say it all!
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Austin_Bill
2,500+ Posts
According to the 247 talent rating, Texas has the #7 most talent in the country. Let that sink in for a moment.
Austin_Bill
2,500+ Posts
My opinion on how we got here.
Loss to LSU - Lack of Talent
Loss to OU - Lack of coaching
Loss to TCU - Lack of coaching
Loss to ISU - Lack of Coaching
Loss to Baylor Lack of Coaching
Win over La Tech - Talent
Win over Rice - talent
I'll save you the rest, everyone we beat was because of talent, not coaching.
Losses 80% because of coaches 20% because of talent.
Wins 100% because of talent, 0% because of coaching.
We only played 1 team this year that was more talented than Texas was, in every other game, Texas by far had the most talent.
I know those will say, we were inexperienced on defense, coaching can compensate for inexperience. I know those will say we were banged up, but injuries are part of the game, everyone is banged up. It's the coaches job to put everyone in the best position to succeed. They didn't do that.
Texas was never a top 5 team, but they are the a top 10 talent team with a extremely untalented coaching staff leading them.
Loss to LSU - Lack of Talent
Loss to OU - Lack of coaching
Loss to TCU - Lack of coaching
Loss to ISU - Lack of Coaching
Loss to Baylor Lack of Coaching
Win over La Tech - Talent
Win over Rice - talent
I'll save you the rest, everyone we beat was because of talent, not coaching.
Losses 80% because of coaches 20% because of talent.
Wins 100% because of talent, 0% because of coaching.
We only played 1 team this year that was more talented than Texas was, in every other game, Texas by far had the most talent.
I know those will say, we were inexperienced on defense, coaching can compensate for inexperience. I know those will say we were banged up, but injuries are part of the game, everyone is banged up. It's the coaches job to put everyone in the best position to succeed. They didn't do that.
Texas was never a top 5 team, but they are the a top 10 talent team with a extremely untalented coaching staff leading them.
We lost to ISU because our friggin Sr. Captain jumped offsides. That one's on him. Regardless of what happened prior we should have won the game. Put a big R next to that one.
^^^I agree. This has been proven repeatedly in college football programs since the game began. Coaches are THE key: The staff must include above average recruiters; and Head coaches must be excellent teachers, communicators, showing tolerance, and understanding of human nature,and the kind of men who kindle loyalty, sacrifice and admiration.
Not many folks possess the high degree of these characteristics that are required to be a top coach. There just aren't that many around. This is why so many folks want a proven commodity. Someone with skins on the wall at the highest level of competition. Getting that person is not easy.
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For the record, I agree w all of this^^^^^^
And, Cary, it's your last line that makes me impassioned about making sure we critically examine all aspects of our program and culture...not just coaches.
You wont always have a Bryant, Saban, Meyer, Bowden, Sweeney, Brown, Royal.
Good post. I want that man, too.
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Texas Lawhorn
100+ Posts
The idea that the fans have led to a culture that is somehow affecting how Texas plays is ridiculous. The Texas fan base is no worse than any fan base at a big winning program. In fact, it probably better in many many respects. It’s the administration and the coaching. I noticed that CDC has come out after the Tech win defending Tom and the fact that we are lucky to have a winning record for the last three years. CDC is somehow trying to bring expectations down. He of course is spewing non-sense. You think OU is just happy with having a winning record? What about Alabama or Clemson or any other top program. For these programs being in the hunt for a CFP berth every year is the standard meaning in an average season they expect to win 10 or 11 games. If CDC wants us to judge him and the coaches by the standard of average programs in college sports, then CDC and the coaches should get paid like ADs and coaches at those schools. Maybe $200k or $300k, not millions. Really sad that they are not saying “we are going to fix this” and instead are saying you should be happy with what you have.
Austin_Bill
2,500+ Posts
One play does not make a game. I don't care that Roach jumped off sides, why were we in that position to begin with? Why did our defense let them march down like they did? Who was the more talented team?
You can point to one moment and say this is the fault, but I see a whole game of faults, and they all fall at the feet of our coaches!!!!!
When it closes the game out, yea, one play was the game. I get it that all kinds of crap could have happened earlier to make it different. Still I don't care what happened up to that point, that one play was the difference. Wasn't even his only off sides in that game. But 4th and 4 you do NOT jump offsides on a FG you don't have to block to win. Not only did he cost us their FG he allowed them to bleed the clock. It wasn't do or die right there. 1:45 left we had time. Just don't jump offsides. Get tired of guys not executing. Whether it's blown assignments, blown tackles, blown blocks, bad reads. Sure you're going to have some. No ones perfect. But we have had far far too many for a team with 10-2 talent. What gets you 7-5 instead of 10-2.
Austin_Bill
2,500+ Posts
We lost to ISU, that one play didnt result in them scoring 20 pts, it allowed them to score 3 pts. That one play didn't stop our offense from sucking all game long.
I'm never going to blame a player for trying to make a play, it's unfortunate we were in that position, but mistakes will always be made, injuries will always happen. But when the University of Texas loses to Iowa F'ing State University, you can bet it wasn't because of one play but a whole season of bad plays and a whole game of suckage. That falls at the feet of our coaches. Same for KSU, TCU, and Baylor.
I'm good with holding players accountable for their mistakes, but to lay a whole game on one play is to ignore the forrest for the trees.
NorfolkVATiger
100+ Posts
Pretty interesting chart, posted this in the LSU thread before the season. Ohio State, Bama and UGA in another stratosphere. LSU with a little separation at 4, then a bunching of FSU - Oklahoma - Penn State - Texas - Michigan - Clemson - USC - Auburn that have almost identical blue chip ratios.
I would point out how much you guys have increased the last 2 years in this measure of talent - which means your talent is very young. Not making excuses for coaching, but young talent vs experienced is a real thing in terms of results.
Worth noting FSU and Clemson have the same blue chip ratio but very different results. Now that's coaching for sure.
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