How about that Rick Barnes dude!

Joe Fan said:
Kind of a low standard, but sure, we agree. Not a bad job.
He was not bad here either
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They have been really bad for so long the standard was very low, but what he did with this team was a great job. Now he will be judged on this years results. He did really good things here too, but he hit his ceiling. It will be interesting to see what happens when he hits his ceiling there.
 
Trying to be objective about this year, it seems to me:

1) Barnes had less talent in Knoxville than Smart had in Austin

2) Barnes got more out of less

3) Barnes team appeared to have a symblence of a plan

4) Barnes team won their first round in the tournament

5) Shaka Smart, standard bearer for Bill Powers legacy, did not come close to 2, 3, 4, or 5

Do I want Barnes back? NO!

Do I want a coach that resembles someone more qualified the Murchison Middle School 7th grade coach? Sooner rather than later

:hookem2:
 
SAMMCHornfan said:
And now the team his team lost to on a last second “Prayer” is going to the final four. Yeah, still not too bad.
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Barnes career
1987-977 George Mason - no NCAA
1988–89 Providence lost game one
1989–90 Providence lost game one
1990–91 Providence no NCAA
1991–92 Providence no NCAA
1992–93 Providence no NCAA
1993–94 Providence lost game one
1994–95 Clemson no NCAA
1995–96 Clemson lost game one
1996–97 Clemson Sweet 16
1997-98 Clemson lost game one
1998–99 Texas lost game one
1999–00 Texas lost second game
2000–01 Texas lost game one
2001–02 Texas Sweet Sixteen
2002–03 Texas Final Four
2003–04 Texas Sweet Sixteen
2004–05 Texas lost game one
2005–06 Texas Elite Eight
2006–07 Texas lost second game
2007–08 Texas Elite Eight
2008–09 Texas lost second game
2009–10 Texas lost game one
2010–11 Texas lost second game
2011–12 Texas lost game one
2012–13 Texas no NCAA
2013–14 Texas lost second game
2014–15 Texas lost game one
2015–16 Tennessee no NCAA
2016–17 Tennessee no NCAA
2017–18 Tennessee lost second game

Barnes had a good run from 2002-03 through 2007-8 where he made the Elite 8 (or better) 3 out of 6 seasons
However, in all this time, despite multiple lottery picks, he managed just that one Final 4.
His mode (in statistical terms) has been losing the first weekend. This makes him one of the kings of the early exit.
I think saying he is "not bad" covers it well enough.
What is a better description?
Do you mean to say you think this record is "elite?" It's not.
 
Joe, chill out already. I was simply congratulating Barnes on a great season before the tourney even started. You are taking the original post way off topic. What he did at Texas has nothing to do with the original post. Crap, he did take UT to a final four and a couple of Elite 8s. Don’t remember that happening too often prior to his arrival. BTW, I think Shaka is going to be fine next year as long as he doesn’t have a mass exodus. I hope Young isn’t the start of anything, but I read good things about Long.
 
wait, Joe Fan is correct---He did great, and took us one step further than Dr Tom, but that's it--was time for him to go--now, have we taken a step back from his departure, possibly so--needless to say, he took us (The University) as far as he could---Shaka has not shown that he has capability of taking us even farther--but not surprised as to results of Barnes given what he did during the regular season--if you are surprised, then you have not followed him while he was here....
 
Joe Fan said:
Barnes career
1987-977 George Mason - no NCAA
1988–89 Providence lost game one
1989–90 Providence lost game one
1990–91 Providence no NCAA
1991–92 Providence no NCAA
1992–93 Providence no NCAA
1993–94 Providence lost game one
1994–95 Clemson no NCAA
1995–96 Clemson lost game one
1996–97 Clemson Sweet 16
1997-98 Clemson lost game one
1998–99 Texas lost game one
1999–00 Texas lost second game
2000–01 Texas lost game one
2001–02 Texas Sweet Sixteen
2002–03 Texas Final Four
2003–04 Texas Sweet Sixteen
2004–05 Texas lost game one
2005–06 Texas Elite Eight
2006–07 Texas lost second game
2007–08 Texas Elite Eight
2008–09 Texas lost second game
2009–10 Texas lost game one
2010–11 Texas lost second game
2011–12 Texas lost game one
2012–13 Texas no NCAA
2013–14 Texas lost second game
2014–15 Texas lost game one
2015–16 Tennessee no NCAA
2016–17 Tennessee no NCAA
2017–18 Tennessee lost second game

Barnes had a good run from 2002-03 through 2007-8 where he made the Elite 8 (or better) 3 out of 6 seasons
However, in all this time, despite multiple lottery picks, he managed just that one Final 4.
His mode (in statistical terms) has been losing the first weekend. This makes him one of the kings of the early exit.
I think saying he is "not bad" covers it well enough.
What is a better description?
Do you mean to say you think this record is "elite?" It's not.
Click to expand...
Preach!!!
 
Joe Fan said:
What is a better description?
Click to expand...

“one heckuva regular season coach” - beijinghorn.
had me rolling. :lmao: Spot on.

His 05-06 team was equipped to win the whole thing. Rick just **** the bed in the last couple of minutes of the game and let LSU take us to overtime.
 
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Actually, I look at the list of results and go “who at Texas has ever come close to that?”

Rick Barnes accounts for literally half of our program’s accomplishments. Basketball is not like football or baseball. I honestly do not know if we will ever get someone to match what Barnes did here in our lifetimes. I hope we can and the answer may be in Lubbock

Beard got Tech to their first Elite 8 in only his second year. Shaka does not need 5 years to win. In basketball, you should be winning in 2-3 years (See Barnes at Tennessee). If we want a next level coach, Beard may be our best shot.
 
My concern with Beard, for us, is that he’s not yet a proven commodity. One elite 8 run doesn’t necessarily make him an elite coach. Our last 3 coaches did that. Let’s say he makes the final 4. Our current coach and previous coach did that. That’s a big hump to get over. Shaka lucked into a deep tourney run and had marginal success as a blue collar/players coach in a small market. He has regressed mightily ever since. Basing his caliber and his hire off of that one achievement was obviously a mistake.

What if Beard makes the title game? Or wins the first basketball NC for Tech in only his second year. Do we really think he’ll be able to recreate that magic inside of the next decade? Maybe. Maybe not. I’m inclined to think not. There’s a lot of merit to the notion that opportunity to advance far in the tournament (and win) is left to luck and chance, and perhaps subject to the law of averages.

We need not only someone that has a track record of consistently winning 25+ games and getting teams to conference championships and making deep runs into the tournament (if not winning nat championships), but someone that can thrive in our business; someone that can excel within the organization that is UT Austin. Someone that can do the politicking, can pull in those 4-5 Star recruits that are going out of state, can forgive our fleeting fan base and not be complacent when things aren’t going as planned. I know that’s a tall order and I don’t know who that is or when (if) they’ll present but when they do, we need to be ready to act.

I’ll add that absent that model, we could take a flyer on an unproven commodity like Beard, but he doesn’t need a silly *** big money guaranteed contract until he earns it.
 
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SAMMCHornfan said:
Joe, chill out already. I was simply congratulating Barnes on a great season before the tourney even started. You are taking the original post way off topic. ....
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Let us review --

I agree Barnes was "not bad" but suggested that is a low bar.
You quickly replied you thought he was better than "not bad." I am not 100% certain but it seems like maybe you also mean he should still be the coach at Texas and was fired unjustly? And Shaka's results are the price we are paying for that?
So, anyway, without using any exclamations or superlatives, I took the time to put the actual facts showing Barnes' real world results on the table for all to see, and remember.

How is any of what I wrote unchill?

leslie-knope-gif-16.gif
 
Joe Fan said:
I think saying he is "not bad" covers it well enough.
What is a better description?
Do you mean to say you think this record is "elite?" It's not.
Click to expand...

I would say Barnes is a very good coach. Not elite, but better than "not bad". How many coaches make the NCAA tourney 84% of the time over 31 years through four different programs? He made the sweet 16 or better six times or almost 20% of his career. That's pretty good.

To me he is the guy who can take over a broken program, fix it then move on to the next one. In my opinion he will never be the guy to win it all.
 
Something that’s not come up in the “Chris Beard is awesome” discussion is that 3 of his starters are Tubby Smith recruits. FWIW.

Also of note: Beard Is a UT Grad and was an assistant at Texas under Penders from 91-95. Maybe you knew that - I did not.
 
Vol Horn 4 Life said:
...How many coaches make the NCAA tourney 84% of the time over 31 years through four different programs? He made the sweet 16 or better six times or almost 20% of his career. That's pretty good....
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I show that as 74%. In a coincidence, his "first weekend exit" mode was the same number. His teams lost the first weekend 74% of the times he made the tourney. I guess that's good for fans of symmetry. On his career, Barnes either did not make the NCAAs or lost the first weekend 81% of all his seasons as a head coach.

Is that still "pretty good"? It's a subjective standard to be sure. I am not really in a position to say you are wrong. However you look at it is however you look at it. In the end, our school concluded it was not good enough.

Which brings up the issue of what our standard should be?
I used to be convinced that the University of Texas could do better. Should do better. My minimum standard was that we could and should at least be competitive with Kansas in our own conference.

I am not so convinced of that anymore. Here is my rationale -- NCAA basketball is so corrupt and dirty that I just dont care as much anymore. And I am not sure I even want us to be that competitive year-in and year-out if swimming with snakes is the only way to do it.
 
I would say that Rick Barnes being the most successful basketball coach in our history and being the most successful non-Kansas coach in Big 12 history is “great.” In fact, I would say he is one of the best college coaches in the history of this state. I will also add that success came without “swimming with snakes.”

My only thought on Beard is the same thought I had with Strong/Brown on football. If you are going to fire Mack Brown/Rick Barnes, you better have a sure thing lined up and not be taking a chance. If you are going to fire Strong/Smart, you can afford to take chances because you are not firing someone that has gotten results anyway.
 
I don't think Smart will be here much longer. I don't think TT's coach is the answer (just check back at this time next year and see if TT even made the tournament). I think the problem here in Texas/Austin is not a basketball state (or city, really). It'll take a "pro" mindset for someone elite to come to UT (John Calipari/etc). I know "we" don't like that mindset here but ideally we'd get somebody with Rick Barnes' defensive coaching abilities but a Tom Penders "shoot lights out when necessary" to get back to the Final Four.... Does that person exist? I don't know, but it would take getting a guy in here that can lure the top guys in to Austin and not the traditional powers like Duke/Kansas/UCLA/etc....If only Rick Barnes liked scoring more than 80 points in a game....that woulda been COOL!
 
I'm fine with Rick.

But in his first 6 years as our coach, he only went to the tournament twice and lost the first game both times. 0-2

I'll cheer for Rick but let's not make him the standard for Shaka.

...

Independent of that, I have an issue with Shaka's offense.
 
But in his first 6 years as our coach, he only went to the tournament twice and lost the first game both times. 0-2

I'll cheer for Rick but let's not make him the standard for Shaka.
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What? Rick Barnes went to the NCAA tournament every year his first 6 years which included the final four run. It was posted above in this thread.

Shaka needs to perform at the level of Barnes or even Penders at least. So far he has not up to Barnes or Penders level. Right now he is our first step back in basketball since Kaiser Bob. Also, so far, his results would not put him in the top 7 coaches in Texas basketball history... and I am not sure we have more than 5 good coaches historically.
 
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Joe Fan said:
Let us review --

I agree Barnes was "not bad" but suggested that is a low bar.
You quickly replied you thought he was better than "not bad." I am not 100% certain but it seems like maybe you also mean he should still be the coach at Texas and was fired unjustly? And Shaka's results are the price we are paying for that?
So, anyway, without using any exclamations or superlatives, I took the time to put the actual facts showing Barnes' real world results on the table for all to see, and remember.

How is any of what I wrote unchill?

leslie-knope-gif-16.gif
Click to expand...
I guess my original post rubbed you the wrong way. As for Shaka, I have actually been one of his biggest supporters on this board. I think next year will be a breakthrough year for the Horns.
 
SAMMCHornfan said:
I guess my original post rubbed you the wrong way. ...
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I took the time to dig up Barnes' coaching results just to get the facts on the table. This is always my position. People can draw different opinions from the same set of facts. But let us at least make an effort to ensure we are all talking about the same thing. The other reason this is a good thing to do is because memories naturally fade over time. It happens to everyone. And most people will ameliorate bad memories leaving the better memories. I think this is a natural, subconscious process by the human brain.
 
X Misn Tx said:
...Independent of that, I have an issue with Shaka's offense.
Click to expand...

I see a few irritating overlaps in their offenses
First, is that outside weave that usually just ends up wasting time resulting in a rushed, contested long 2P attempt. This is low percentage offensive basketball
Second, both coaches often had some of their worst percentage shooters taking the most shots on the season. This year it was DO who took the most shots and the most 3PAs while shooting just 40% overall and only 28% on 3s. Barnes regularly did the same thing (was very frustrating).
Third, we've never run the PnR effectively. This year, I thought we had both the guards (at least Coleman) and the big men (3 of them) to incorporate this as a bread-and-butter play. Didnt happen near enough.
Fourth, neither coach prioritizes recruiting great outside shooting.
 
Joe Fan said:
I took the time to dig up Barnes' coaching results just to get the facts on the table. This is always my position. People can draw different opinions from the same set of facts. But let us at least make an effort to ensure we are all talking about the same thing. The other reason this is a good thing to do is because memories naturally fade over time. It happens to everyone. And most people will ameliorate bad memories leaving the better memories. I think this is a natural, subconscious process by the human brain.
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Once again, the original post had nothing to do what Barnes did while at Texas. It simply congratulated him on a great year (yes, I said great) and possible National Coach of the Year nomination. You only jumped on the bandwagon after he lost in the second round. Would have been much more impressive if you would have gave all your negative impressions of his coaching abilities prior to him losing in the second round. Then you could of "gloated" and said I told you so. Anyone can gloat after the fact.
 
Htown77 said:
Texas fans literally do the opposite with Mack Brown and Rick Barnes.
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Actually the only coach that I was really pissed about being let go or leaving their position at Texas was Abe Lemons. Was pretty much indifferent about all the rest, even the great Darrel Royal.
 
Htown77 said:
What? Rick Barnes went to the NCAA tournament every year his first 6 years which included the final four run. It was posted above in this thread.

Shaka needs to perform at the level of Barnes or even Penders at least. So far he has not up to Barnes or Penders level. Right now he is our first step back in basketball since Kaiser Bob. Also, so far, his results would not put him in the top 7 coaches in Texas basketball history... and I am not sure we have more than 5 good coaches historically.
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Sorry. I read that wrong.

He was 1-3 in the tournament in his first 4 years with us. That's accurate, right? I just don't want to compare the two. It's disappointing in both cases.
 
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SAMMCHornfan said:
...You only jumped on the bandwagon after he lost in the second round.....
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It's true I normally avoid Rick Barnes internet arguments because they are so pointless. Had you asked us to predict how far he would go this year (which you could not have done the prior two NCAAs since he did not make the tournament), I would have been willing to bet you he would not survive the first weekend. Why? Because that is his well-established pattern. It's what he has done 80% of his entire career. In none of my ESPN brackets did I have him advancing beyond the second round.

So, yes, I think your premise is flawed. Barnes is a known quantity. He has a recognizable name. He is experienced. He is at the State U in a well-populated state (#16 of 50). And he is in a P5 conference. Everything is in place for him to recruit well. So what does he do? He makes the tourney one of his first three years. And in that one appearance, he lost the first weekend. This was not miracle work. It was the predictive outcome. I do not understand why you think what he did this year was something special. It was Rick Barnes doing Rick Barnes things.
 
Htown77 said:
Texas fans literally do the opposite with Mack Brown and Rick Barnes.
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I think the crowd is split on this now. Each coach has his defenders ( as we have just seen). But back at the time each was let go, the UT crowd was not so split. At the time, there was a consensus on both. That consensus has fractured somewhat only with the benefit of hindsight. IMO, for the reasons I stated above. As the Steve Patterson replacements floundered, the "I told you so" crowd has become a little more vocal.

Here is an amusing account from the end of the Mack Brown days I posted on another thread where Brown-loyalist Joe Jamail compared Longhorn fans demanding changes to the 9-11 terrorists.
https://247sports.com/college/texas...res-Disgruntled-UT-Fans-to-al-Qaeda--24797244
 
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