Hard to Believe We Were 27-16 With Sam as a Starter

WorsterMan said:
LATE game losses that we should credit to BONE HEAD Herman decisions, lack of TH decision(s), a DEFENSE lapse or a missed FG?
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If Herman wins the following ten games, he is still our head coach today:

Maryland 2017
USC 2017
OK State 2017
Texas Tech 2017
Maryland 2018
West Virginia 2018
LSU 2019
TCU 2019
TCU 2020
Iowa State 2020

Most of these losses were of the "bonehead" variety.
 
WorsterMan said:
Sorry, I skipped all the responses to the OP. Sam had flaws and his decisions / play cost us some games - I did not stop to research to try and determine how many games.

Kid played his *** OFF every week to put the Horns in a position to win.

So riddle me all you arm chair analysts: how many of those losses credited to him were:

LATE game losses that were poor BONE HEADED Herman decision(s), or lack of good a TH decision(s), a stupid & unecessary fumble on a goal line run vs. TCU, a D penalty that resulted in made FG vs. ISU, other DEFENSIVE lapses, etc.

Hmmm?

o_Oo_Oo_O
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Oooooo, ooooooo, oooooo. I know the answer:

Nearly all of those losses you referenced were unfairly pinned on Sam. And such losses were actually caused by the sort of reasons you mentioned.

:bevo::popcorn:
Analysis made while leaning on armchair.
 
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KBBAKER said:
No UT startng QB has lost more games (16) than Sam. Let that sink in.
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Same number of losses as another 4 year starter Peter Gardere. Those were lean years except for one. Hard to believe they have the same number of losses as starters. That is sobering
 
KBBAKER said:
If Herman wins the following ten games, he is still our head coach today:

Maryland 2017
USC 2017
OK State 2017
Texas Tech 2017
Maryland 2018
West Virginia 2018
LSU 2019
TCU 2019
TCU 2020
Iowa State 2020

Most of these losses were of the "bonehead" variety.
Click to expand...
He could have lost WV 2018 and LSU 2019 and he'd still be coach. Losing to Maryland 2 years in a row and TCU 2 years in a row is inexcusable.
 
Chop said:
Oooooo, ooooooo, oooooo. I know the answer:

Nearly all of those losses you referenced were unfairly pinned on Sam. And such losses were actually caused by the sort of reasons you mentioned.

:bevo::popcorn:
Analysis made while leaning on armchair.
Click to expand...

No, read what i said and what didn't say. He was the starter where his record was 27-16. His losses while he was the starter were not all "pinned" on him. He gets the loss like the starting pitcher. I was only trying to point out that (I used the word many) were caused by factors other than bad decisions, poor execution, turnovers, etc. by Sam.

KB Baker identified about 10 of those 16 losses that were not the fault of Sam. Maybe you say those 10 are generous, but what if it is 7-8 games? 35-8 with TH as coach was a very decent record.
 
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WorsterMan said:
No, read what i said and what didn't say. He was the starter where his record was 27-16. His losses while he was the starter were not all "pinned" on him. He gets the loss like the starting pitcher. I was only trying to point out that (I used the word many) were caused by factors other than bad decisions, poor execution, turnovers, etc. by Sam.

KB Baker identified about 10 of those 16 losses that were not the fault of Sam. Maybe you say those 10 are generous, but what if it is 7-8 games? 35-8 with TH as coach was a very decent record.
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Not being ironic. In agreement. I'd say the # of losses under Sam--that were not Sam's fault--is actually north of 10. Over his whole career, the number of losses that can be fairly attributed to Sam could probably be counted on one hand. The play calling didn't help. The blocking didn't help. The receivers standing around while he was scrambling didn't help (this one especially bothered me). etc.
 
WorsterMan said:
As you pointed out .... many of those losses above were not his fault - thank you
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I would also bet that about a dozen of his wins were games where he had to put the team on his back and carry them to a victory.

I think the consensus we have reached here is that Sam was a bright spot in an otherwise bad football program led by a bad HC and tutored by an even worse OC . He had the talent and could have had a much better record at almost any other major university with a football team with a pulse.
 
KBBAKER said:
If Herman wins the following ten games, he is still our head coach today:

Maryland 2017
USC 2017
OK State 2017
Texas Tech 2017
Maryland 2018
West Virginia 2018
LSU 2019
TCU 2019
TCU 2020
Iowa State 2020
Click to expand...

Win half of those and he's still the coach.

You could argue he only needed one more win in 2020, either TCU or ISU, and he'd still be here. 9-4 would've been his second-best win total, his win totals in four years would be 7-10-8-9 (generally trending upward), and if the one additional win were over ISU, that would've put us in the Big XII Championship game.
 
Yeah, if he wins those 10, he's arguably the greatest coach we've ever had with an .840 win percentage.

This obviously had more to do with the state of the team and personnel than anything else. Watching how much promise slipped away, whether it was because of malcontents or negative recruiters or hand-holders or interfering donors or whatever, was too much to bear, even if we had beaten TCU or ISU or whoever.

We showed flashes under TH's watch, but those moments never occurred consistently enough in mediocre stretches of games (like mid-level conference opponents) to make anyone fear us at half the tic that Mack's teams were, even in down years like 2003 or 2007.
 
I maintain that Texas could have gone undefeated last year (HA!!! What a laugh) and TH would have been gone, anyway, due to his Summer douchebaggery aimed at the fanbase.

But, that will probably hurt some feelings around here.
 
KBBAKER said:
No UT startng QB has lost more games (16) than Sam. Let that sink in.
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Not a fan of measuring that way since Sam had more games to play than previous QBs. For example,
Texas with Gardre had 45 games between '89 and '93.
Texas with Ehlinger had 50 games between '17 and '20, and it would have been more without COVID. That's over a 10% increase in games played!

I see Texas lost 19 of those 45 games between '89 and '93 and that Gardre played in 44 games. Wikipedia says he started in 41 games meaning there's 3 he 'just played in'.

I can't tell which game he missed, which 3 he 'just played in,' and which 41 he started.

I guess I can deduce from your comment that Gardre can at most be at 15 losses, which means the 4 he didn't start are all losses. Alternatively, sports-reference.com or Wikipedia could have typos.
 
Detective Shilala said:
I would also bet that about a dozen of his wins were games where he had to put the team on his back and carry them to a victory.

I think the consensus we have reached here is that Sam was a bright spot in an otherwise bad football program led by a bad HC and tutored by an even worse OC . He had the talent and could have had a much better record at almost any other major university with a football team with a pulse.
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I didn't think Ash was bad.
And Sam was better than average.
 
Poms I agree Ash was not bad but we only had him for one year.
And I agree Sam ended his career with kind of a mixed resume. He broke a lot of school records, but he also didn’t progress in many aspects of his game.
His leadership and intensity made him special though.
I just have to wonder what could have been if he had better coaching.
TH was very stubborn in his usage of Sam and his strengths.
 
Detective Shilala said:
Poms I agree Ash was not bad but we only had him for one year.
And I agree Sam ended his career with kind of a mixed resume. He broke a lot of school records, but he also didn’t progress in many aspects of his game.
His leadership and intensity made him special though.
I just have to wonder what could have been if he had better coaching.
TH was very stubborn in his usage of Sam and his strengths.
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Ash suffered from even worse blocking than Sam had for most of his time. If I recall correctly, Ash left for medical (concussion-related) reasons. It's a wonder they both weren't knocked silly and left talking like Muhammad Ali in his later days.
 
I never quite understood the Sam is a great leader (sorry don´t mean to aggrevate everyone). I can never in a million years picture Vince Young (who I consider a great leader) being abandoned by all of his teammates if he chose to sing the Eyes of Texas in the same situation. I highly respect Sam for staying out there by himself and I consider him to have outstanding qualities such as personal strength, morals, etc..., but I have always thought that if he was a great leader, most of the team would have been standing next to him or at least his linemen. I am probably wrong.
 
beijinghorn1 said:
I never quite understood the Sam is a great leader (sorry don´t mean to aggrevate everyone). I can never in a million years picture Vince Young (who I consider a great leader) being abandoned by all of his teammates if he chose to sing the Eyes of Texas in the same situation. I highly respect Sam for staying out there by himself and I consider him to have outstanding qualities such as personal strength, morals, etc..., but I have always thought that if he was a great leader, most of the team would have been standing next to him or at least his linemen. I am probably wrong.
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I'm not sure what comment I might make in regards to this^^^^, but I will say you shouldn't feel bad for critiquing one of our QBs, popular or not. I've noticed many people around here have a strange, and very personal, defensive response to any suggestion that the QB they love isn't perfect. The fact is, Sam was very likable, tough as nails, gave his all, and was the right representative of UT as a QB for the time in history within which he played.
He racked up stats due to the length of time he played and the style popularized and utilized during his tenure, and as a result of determination and talent....but there was plenty lacking in his game and progress.
Could he have won more with more consistent defense, better coaching, or other on the field circumstances?
Probably so...but that is true for 95% of all college QBs and in no way negates his flaws or shortcomings. These things are not mutually exclusive. Most of the positive things being said about Sam are true...but he had plenty of flaws...and, more disconcertingly, didn't seem to get markedly stronger in those particular areas.
This same group of posters who won't acknowledge any of Sam's shortcomings would go nuts if anyone criticized Shane, though he did very little on the field while here.....but was a likable team guy with a good attitude- and pedigree.
I don't get all the love is blind protection of your favored QB. It is perfectly possible to love, root for, support, encourage, and cheer for a college QB while still having eyes wide open and recognizing their shortcomings or areas they need to improve....at least it is for some of us.
 
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