Fact: We weren't "a year away"

I think the coach can help change the culture by preparing to win the winnable games on your schedule.
I understand you can't change the culture overnight, but starting off 1-1 and losing to Maryland two years in a row is not going to make that any easier.
 
Culture wasn’t a problem when DKR or Freddy or Mack was winning.

Alabama was pedestrian until Saban took over. He started winning and you could say that the culture changed. Now they expect to win, and the talent is “rolling” in.

USC was mired in mediocrity until Carroll got there. Plenty of talent, just no success prior.

There are other examples. Perhaps Bob Stoops?

Ours is primarily a coaching issue. We had one before DKR, after Akres, and again now, after MB.

While I’m not convinced that TH isn’t the guy — although he’s a jerk, he hasn’t shown us anything yet. Maybe he will.
 
This is a team with as much talent as the 2009 team that played for the MNC, the only thing it really doesn't have is a Colt McCoy and Jordan Shipley.

Oh, and it doesn't have a coach...
Wait....whhuuuttt? Holy cow, that 2009 team had a senior qb with TWO receivers that were 30 years old! That's an exaggeration but I don't know how many times Cosby and Shipley were there for Colt. I can't go player for player but must strongly disagree and say in two years you'll see a team that has a senior qb and closer to as much talent as the 2009 team. You'd be close r to right if Malik and Conner had stayed along with Hill and that other db can't recollect that shouldn't have come out but did....

Shipley was our only good receiver in 2009. Quan was gone.
OL - Our oline now is better than that group.
LB - Our linebackers now are better, I'd rather have guys like Gary Johnson over Keenan Robinson.
DBs - No Earl Thomas for that group it was basically Chyke Brown and Aaron Williams. We have Boyd Jones and a lot of very young talent now. Cade Sterns will be the next truly great DB at Texas.
DL - here is where that team was better than we are now, Michael Houston was hands down better than anyone Texas has right now. Kindle was good but not better than Hagar, Omenahu, and Roach.
WR - all that team had was Shipley, granted he had a crazy special bond with Colt, but I'd still take all the talent Texas has right now over what that group as a unit.
TE - so far neither has proven to have a great unit.
RB - Another push, they didn't have anyone special and as of right now neither does this team.
QB - This is the true difference between playing for a national title and being 1-1 with a loss to Maryland.

looking now....Kennan Robinson, Sergio Kindle, Fozzy, Kenny Vaccaro, Aaron Williams, Justin Tucker, Jared Norton, Earl Thomas, Lamarr Houston, Roddrick Muckelroy, Sam Acho, Marquise Goodwin, DJ Monroe (before Mack hated him) and MY BEST FRIEND Blake Gideon (not). All players that either were huge contributors and/or headed for the NFL. This team is not that team, bro.....

See my post above. Did you just add Fozzy to that list? Serious?

I think it will be fun to revisit this in November :smile1:

Agreed.

Here is a snippet of the IT position on 'team unrest'

" ..... There is a lot of unrest and frustration in program after the win over Tulsa. Tom Herman likes to say winning is hard and they're going to celebrate wins regardless of who they are over. Nobody wanted to celebrate that one. The team went back to work on Sunday, again working on the little things. Last week the team knew it needed to tackle better and that aspect was given priority. We saw improvement in that regard.

I asked about the lack of pressure on the quarterback. That is something the staff was working on yesterday. It was told to me they aren't blitzing enough to make life easier on the Breckyn Hager and Charles Omenihu. I asked where the four-man fronts were? "A lot of people are wondering that." Lining Hager and Omenihu up wide would make getting to the quarterback much easier.

Texas has three defenders who are not in the position they will be looked at for the NFL. Malcolm Roach is one of them, "they need to put him at defensive end and leave him there." That would put Jeff McCulloch on the field at B-backer. He has more range and is also a good pass rusher. I asked for any other personnel decisions that could be made to improve the team. "Anthony Cook should be playing ahead of Kobe Boyce. Josh Thompson at nickel should be permanent. They can't do it now, but Shane Buechele should be given some game time."...."

What if it isn't the coach, or the players, but the culture surrounding the program? That is what we should really be concerned about...that would be a much harder fix.

In my lifetime of watching Texas football there were four major culture changing events that affected this team.

1. 1990 - Shock the world tour. It was Initiated by the players They got away from all the luxury of all the things given to them and went old school. Working out in what amounted to a dungeon where it was hot and sweaty. It was their version of Rocky III getting back to basics. The results were a very good year.

2. John Machovic- His first team meeting with the players, he walked in looked at everyone and walked out. What he saw? All the black players on one side of the room, and all the while players on the other. He refused to walk back in until that changed. If he did nothing else for Texas athletics he changed that one aspect of Texas football and helped to create a team bond.

3. Ricky Williams - Ricky set the tone for Texas athletics in 1997 when he skipped being the #1 draft pick and chose to come back for his senior year. In doing so he set an example that was followed by every great Texas player until it was broken by Vince Young in 2005. Without that example, there might not have been a Championship in 2005.

4. Vince Young 2004 - When he stood up and told the team that whoever wants to beat Ohio State meet here (for off-season workouts). Was one of the defining moments in the culture of the program. It created a level of expectation that lasted until 2010.

Every other culture shift has been trying to get back to that. Notice that the biggest ones were all initiated by the players not by the coaches. This is what this program is missing more than anything else. real leadership from a difference maker player.
 
Culture wasn’t a problem when DKR or Freddy or Mack was winning.

Well... yeah... they were winning. That's sort of why it's a lot easier when you're winning.

OL - Our oline now is better than that group.
LB - Our linebackers now are better, I'd rather have guys like Gary Johnson over Keenan Robinson.
DBs - No Earl Thomas for that group it was basically Chyke Brown and Aaron Williams. We have Boyd Jones and a lot of very young talent now. Cade Sterns will be the next truly great DB at Texas.
DL - here is where that team was better than we are now, Michael Houston was hands down better than anyone Texas has right now. Kindle was good but not better than Hagar, Omenahu, and Roach.
WR - all that team had was Shipley, granted he had a crazy special bond with Colt, but I'd still take all the talent Texas has right now over what that group as a unit.
TE - so far neither has proven to have a great unit.
RB - Another push, they didn't have anyone special and as of right now neither does this team.
QB - This is the true difference between playing for a national title and being 1-1 with a loss to Maryland.

For you to say Kindle wouldn't start on this team is borderline psychotic.

NFL draftees from 2009:
Earl Thomas
Sergio Kindle
Lamarr Houston
Jordan Shipley
Colt McCoy
Roddrick Muckelroy

Guys drafted the next year:
Aaron Williams
Curtis Brown
Sam Acho
Chykie Brown

Guys who would start from 2009:
Emmanuel Acho - LB
Sam Acho - DL
Ben Alexander - OL
Tray Allen - OL
Curtis Brown - CB
John Gold - P
Marquis Goodwin - WR/KR
Chris Hall - OL
Lamar Houston - DT
Blain Irby - TE
Sergio Kindle - DE
Hunter Lawrence - K
Colt McCoy - QB
Alex Okafor - DL (OK probably wouldn't start but would be playing a lot)
Jordan Shipley - WR
Earl Thomas - S
Roddrick Muckelroy - LB (would play a lot, maybe not start)

And that's not counting guys like Aaron Williams and Fozzie Whittaker who were still a year or so away but were very definitely good enough to start in their prime.

The talent level is not in the same league as the 2009 team. That's not even up for debate.
 
It's funny to me that we are always "one year away". However, it seems like we have the "best" and "most talented" freshman every year. I have heard this for 8+ years! When do all these talented, and highly sought after freshman become stud juniors and seniors? We've been "young" for nearly an entire decade! Development/Coaching?
 
I cannot believe that I am about to put this in writing, but after either the 2019 or 2020 seasons if Herman is shown the door I would go straight to Bob Stoops and pay him what he wants. Let's see if he can win in a clean program.
 
Absolutely agree. Not even close.
Well... yeah... they were winning. That's sort of why it's a lot easier when you're winning.



For you to say Kindle wouldn't start on this team is borderline psychotic.

NFL draftees from 2009:
Earl Thomas
Sergio Kindle
Lamarr Houston
Jordan Shipley
Colt McCoy
Roddrick Muckelroy

Guys drafted the next year:
Aaron Williams
Curtis Brown
Sam Acho
Chykie Brown

Guys who would start from 2009:
Emmanuel Acho - LB
Sam Acho - DL
Ben Alexander - OL
Tray Allen - OL
Curtis Brown - CB
John Gold - P
Marquis Goodwin - WR/KR
Chris Hall - OL
Lamar Houston - DT
Blain Irby - TE
Sergio Kindle - DE
Hunter Lawrence - K
Colt McCoy - QB
Alex Okafor - DL (OK probably wouldn't start but would be playing a lot)
Jordan Shipley - WR
Earl Thomas - S
Roddrick Muckelroy - LB (would play a lot, maybe not start)

And that's not counting guys like Aaron Williams and Fozzie Whittaker who were still a year or so away but were very definitely good enough to start in their prime.

The talent level is not in the same league as the 2009 team. That's not even up for debate.[/QUOTE
Absolutely agree. Not even close
 
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Well... yeah... they were winning. That's sort of why it's a lot easier when you're winning.
Prodigal, DKR, Akres and MB weren’t winning...until they were.

DKR followed a 1-9 Ed Price season with 6-4-1 in 1957.

Akres followed DKR’s 5-5-1 in 1976 with 11-1 in 1977. Was the player turnover that dramatic? (That’s a rhetorical question.)

MB followed a Mackovic season of 4-7 with 9-3 in 1998. Think about that one.

TH followed Strong’s 2016 6-7 with 7-6. Geez.

Here’s the pattern I see. The great new coaches at Texas each achieved an immediate improvement over the previous season, with basically the same talent. Herman didn’t.

Unless the talent difference is overwhelming, it’s almost always about the coaching.
 
This is a team with as much talent as the 2009 team that played for the MNC, the only thing it really doesn't have is a Colt McCoy and Jordan Shipley.

So 2018 and 2009 are the same talent-wise if you remove by far the 2 most talented players from the 2009 offense?

DBs - No Earl Thomas for that group it was basically Chyke Brown and Aaron Williams. We have Boyd Jones and a lot of very young talent now. Cade Sterns will be the next truly great DB at Texas.

We actually did have Earl in 2009. We intercepted 15 passes that season just from the safety position. This crop of guys in the secondary has a lot of potential but the 2009 DBs were better - and the 2009 DL was leagues better.
 
My apologies, I did a double take on the 2009 roster and yes, Thomas was there. so with him I'd give the 2009 DBs the edge.

DE - between the duo of Acho and Kindle vs the trio of Omenahu, Hager and Roach, it's a pretty close race. Kindle was overrated in my opinion. He came in as a 5'star but never lived up to the hype. Acho was underrated and was much more effective while he was here. If I ranked those 5, I'd put Acho first followed by Hager, then Kindle then Omenahu and Roach. The difference is Roach and Omenahu are real close to Kindle. I guarantee both Acho and Kindle benefited greatly from having Lamarr Houston in the middle.

Anyone that thinks Trey Allen would start over Calvin Anderson is high as a kite. Anderson already is the best Left Tackle Texas has had since Tony Hills. And the thought of Chris Hall starting for Texas this year makes almost throw up in my mouth. That whole offensive line was a hot mess, the only reason it looked marginally good is because Colt was such a talent in getting rid of the ball fast and running around, it made them look 100x better then they actually were.

The point of all this is, that it's nothing but excuses to think this roster doesn't have talent, there is talent everywhere except at the QB spot and in the coaching office. I'm not necessarily advocating the removal of Tom Herman, but he needs to be coaching like his career depended on it, because it does. He needs to put his ego aside and get his hands dirty to make sure he is getting everything out of his players and his assistants.

Most important he needs to hold his assistants to the same standard that he is being held to, if he doesn't Texas will move forward and replace him.
 
..... it seems like we have the "best" and "most talented" freshman every year. I have heard this for 8+ years! ...

I agree with what you wrote in general, however, but we have not had the top freshman in many seasons. There was a dramatic falloff in recruiting at the end of the Mack Brown Era. Even some of Mack's latter classes which had high rankings were complete washouts (which is where the meme that he and his assistants were phoning in offers based off service rankings from golf courses came from). We did not officially climb back into the top 5 in the national rankings until the current 2018 class.

Team Rankings
2013 - 24th per Rivals/17th per 247
2014 -- 20/17
2015 -- 12/10
2016 -- 11/7
2017 -- 31/26
2018 -- 4/3
 
I've read it here and now I've heard it a couple times on the radio that Herman is still learning on the job. He was HC at Houston for only two years before coming here going 13-1 followed by 9-4. That's impressive, but not much of a resume or experience as a head coach. I've said here before that Texas is not the place to learn on the job but here he is trying to navigate possibly the most difficult program in all of college football.

The four years prior to Herman at Houston was Tony Levine going 5-7, 8-5 and 8-5 after Sumlin's last year of 13-1. Herman inherited some decent talent left over for that type of program and did a very job at a group of 5 school with almost zero pressure.

Compare to MB who had the following record before finally getting to the 10 win plateau at a P5 school. He started small then gradually got bigger and better all at terrible football schools as time went on.
App St 6-5
Tulane 1-10, 4-7, 6-6
North Carolina 1-10, 1-10, 6-4-1, 7-4, 8-3 then 9-3

That would be 11 years before Mack finally was able to win 10 games in a P5 conference. Should it take Herman 11 years to win at Texas? No because he isn't starting at Tulane or NC with no football tradition. In year 4 at the head coach level and literally jumping into arguably the hottest seat in all of college football with probably a better than average group of athletes he's learning how to manage recruiting, the team, fans, administration, regular donors and 'big cigars". It's incredibly difficult to manage all of the distractions as the "CEO" of Texas. Thankfully his strong suit seems to be intelligence, recruiting and energy while his weakness is his arrogance of being given this position at such an early point in his career.

A young guy like Herman in his second year as a head coach couldn't possibly fathom the responsibility at Texas when he accepted the offer. I know I always thought I was ready for the next level and when I got it I was humbled quickly and had to learn quickly. I'm just glad I wasn't given the opportunity to run a top 10 company when I was Tom's age. I'm certain he was confident in his ability and thrilled that he was given a massive offer to take over one of the top 5 programs in the history of the game.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's not his fault he accepted the huge offer to come to Texas, but he did. He's now backed into a corner and has to adapt and fight his way out or he is doomed here. Unfortunately for us we are at the mercy of a young coach figuring all of this out fast or we will be in a pretty bad place for years to come. No pressure Tom.
 
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A young guy like Herman in his second year as a head coach couldn't possibly fathom the responsibility at Texas when he accepted the offer.
Vol, some really good points but I don’t agree with the above. In my mind, there’s no way Herman could have “not known” the pressure cooker that is Texas. He was here under MB, he’s a very smart guy, he was only down the road in Houston when everything was going down with Strong, and he spent a few years in the tOSU pressure cooker. He knew, and he was prepared...as much as he could be.

This fan base embraced Tom Herman as the savior when he was hired late 2016. The love was palpable. But he hasn’t delivered, not close —yet, and his attitude has cost him virtually all of the immense goodwill he had.
 
He was here under MB, he’s a very smart guy, he was only down the road in Houston when everything was going down with Strong, and he spent a few years in the tOSU pressure cooker.
There is no way as a GA at Texas, coordinator at OSU and coach a Houston he would completely understand what it's like to be The Guy at Texas. No way. I always thought I knew what my boss was going through until I was the boss and I'm talking at every level of being the boss. There's a lot of insulation in between each level.
 
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I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I've led $80M to $100M a year revenue business and didn't have the complexities that Herman has to manage. What Herman has to navigate is different and much more difficult than I ever had to figure out. I navigated one billionaire while Herman has to navigate millions of fans and several billionaire opinions while at the same time figuring out one of the most difficult university political systems. No graduate assistant, coordinator or head coach at Houston job could possibly prepare him for that.
 
Vol, I simply see it differently. The pressure that Herman is now facing is, to some extent, his own doing. While expectations at Texas are very high, Herman himself upped the ante as a result of his comments, and his demeanor.

If the culture at Texas is so challenging, so toxic; if it is the cesspool that Herbstreit claims, then indeed no coach will want the job and no coach — outside of a handful starting with Saban, Belichick and a few others — can survive here.

I just don’t buy it.

Strong was a wonderful fellow that just didn’t have the tools. Herman does, but he has made life in Austin much more difficult then it had to be. And he’s supposed to be a very smart guy.

Herman can right the ship, and I hope that he will. Quickly. As I said in another thread, a good place to start would be Contrition and Humility Avenue.
 
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what Jimbo has done for Kellen Mond

Bill,

Fisher hasn't done **** for Mond, and the won't because he can't. That is all on Darrell Dickey, a man whom if he resided in Bellmont Hall, we'd all be talking about whether we could cover the -13 line against USC. He man is one of the best coaches to ever walk a sideline..

:hookem2:
 
The pressure that Herman is now facing is, to some extent, his own doing. While expectations at Texas are very high, Herman himself upped the ante as a result of his comments, and his demeanor.

That's partly what I said. The other part was he didnt know what he was getting into and now he has to figure it out or he's doomed. Everyone knows it's a hard job. Nobody but Herman and the former coaches actually know how hard it is.
 
That's partly what I said. The other part was he didnt know what he was getting into and now he has to figure it out or he's doomed. Everyone knows it's a hard job. Nobody but Herman and the former coaches actually know how hard it is.
Part of what makes it hard is actually being a good coach, which he hasn't been to this point.
 
he didnt know what he was getting into
He was a GA here and saw some of what Mack went through.
He was OC at tOSU and saw a lot of what Meyer went thru at a major program.
He was head coach at a decent level UH.
If he didn't understand what he was getting into here then he's not as smart as we've been led to believe.
 
The talent argument frustrates me. And few pundants know much if any more than the people on this board.

Given what Gary Patterson (as one example) has done in Ft. Worth with considerably “less” talent, does anyone really believe that talent is the issue here? If you insist on going there, I’m willing to bet that if someone studied the Texas classes starting in 2010, our average rating would rank in the top 10. Yet since then we’re about a 0.500 team.

So is it talent? No, it’s coaching.
 
The talent argument frustrates me. And few pundants know much if any more than the people on this board.

Given what Gary Patterson (as one example) has done in Ft. Worth with considerably “less” talent, does anyone really believe that talent is the issue here? If you insist on going there, I’m willing to bet that if someone studied the Texas classes starting in 2010, our average rating would rank in the top 10. Yet since then we’re about a 0.500 team.

So is it talent? No, it’s coaching.
It's coaching, it really is. But CS derailed our talent pool and set us back 4 years or more by letting all those O Linemen go in 2014. 2018 is the first year where we have an O Line comparable to 2013 and before. Mack had same or less talent than TH and went 8-5 his last year. I think TH can match that this year and hopefully beat it. But if he doesn't then yea, he's part of the problem. A big part.
The USC game will be extremely telling. I just hope they keep improving. They improved drastically from game one to game thirteen last year. That is true.
 
Speaking of Patterson, he's been the head coach at TCU for 18 years. The head coaches at the other 11 FBS programs in the state of Texas combined haven't been at their schools for 18 years.
 
Speaking of Patterson, he's been the head coach at TCU for 18 years. The head coaches at the other 11 FBS programs in the state of Texas combined haven't been at their schools for 18 years.

That's what happens when your expectations for a head coach are to compete for a conference championship every year, and if you never actually win one (although I guess they shared one or two?), that's cool. ESPN knows who we are!
 
Bill,

Fisher hasn't done **** for Mond, and the won't because he can't. That is all on Darrell Dickey, a man whom if he resided in Bellmont Hall, we'd all be talking about whether we could cover the -13 line against USC. He man is one of the best coaches to ever walk a sideline..

:hookem2:

I give Jimbo the credit just like I would give Herman the credit if Sam was playing well. The head coach gets all the blame and all the credit.
 
I give Jimbo credit for hiring a top quality OC and DC. Hell, he ****** up a time honored FSU tradition that was a couple of decades old - players get free food at Publix.
 
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