Defining Decision for Steve Patterson

[Htown77]

And acting like all the schools in the D-1 basketball are created equal and just because you finish in the top quartile thinking that is above mediocre is BS. You can't compare some school like Southwest Hampton College of the lake to a power conference school ...resources, recruiting, media attention, etc.

You say this... then ignore that fact that this state just went 0-5 in the NCAA tournament, did not even put a team in the NCAA tournament a few years ago and Rick Barnes is the only coach in this entire state to take a Texas school to the final four since U of H in 1984. We not an equal college basketball state. There are plenty of schools with resources in the northeastern united states that do not produce good football. There is a reason they do not have great college football from New York to Maine... just like this state does not have great college basketball.

 

[Htown77]

I feel strongly that the term "football school" is not valid excuse for lower performance. When schools like Baylor can be competitive in both football and basketball, why can't Texas. Yes, Kansas is in our conference but they were beat by other teams

1. How many conference titles in basketball does baylor have? (0)
2. Yes teams occasionally beat Kansas. Rick Barnes occasionally beat Kansas, just like everyone else. What is your point? They still won the regular season conference title.

and really probably less than 150 that have competitive programs in D-1 IMO

What is 150 based on?

There are also opportunities to win the conference or win the Big 12 tourney. Ironically, Barnes won the Big 12 conference outright in his 1st year, but never again. He did get 2 more co-championships (the last one 8 years ago). Barnes has NEVER won a Big 12 tourney in 17 years (even when we were the favorite)! Beating a higher ranked team is extremely rare in Barnes tenure...we simply rarely out perform. Of course there have been some exceptions, but they have been very rare.

As has been brought up, Barnes has the second most Big 12 titles of any coach that was not at Kansas and any school that is not Kansas. I doubt the beating higher ranked teams is rare stat is true. How many times have we been favored to win the big 12 tournament?

 

[rickysrun]

Then what would be his defining hire in your opinion? Baseball when Augie retires? (seems hard to not get the best hire there, but I should not say that and risk jinxing it) Some other men's sport?

I have excluded football because he is only one voice of many in those hires.

Sorry, I just don't think replacing Barnes is either significant nor difficult.
I would think replacing Augie is much more significant. Texas baseball is a defined program on the Mt. Rushmore of college baseball programs. Augie has a distinct style of ball. So when Texas looks for his replacement will they continue along that path or look for someone who prefers more pop in the line up? Anyone taking the Texas job is filling a position that has been coached by legends. Plural.
The guy replacing Barnes has 1/100th the task.

 

[zork]

If Barnes stays who is the starting 5 next year, top 8 players?

 

[txlandagent]

Too bad Larry Brown is so old; I'd take him in a heartbeat. Shaka Smart will never leave VCU. I'd take either of the Miller brothers (preferably Sean), but Archie is a more realistic get. Even more realistic would be a back page article name like Brad Underwood. 8 seasons with Frank Martin (6 in the big 12) and a pretty hot start in our back yard with the Lumberjacks seems like the kind of guy Patterson would offer.

 

[hornarama]

Htown, your worship of Kansas makes any meaningful discussion relatively pointless, but I'll try. Where was Arizona before Lute Olsen.
Bruce Larson 1961–1972 136–148 .479
Fred Snowden 1972–1982 167–108 .607
Ben Lindsey 1982–1983 4–24 .143
Lute Olson 1983–2007 589–188 .758
Hmm. .143 before Lute Olson, .758 after.

Where was UCLA before John Wooden?
Caddy Works 1921–1939 173 159 .521
Wilbur Johns 1939–1948 93 120 .437
John Wooden* 1948–1975 620 147 .808

Was UCLA an impossible superpower that no one could beat before John Wooden? No, they were not even a .500 team.
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This idea that the name of the school forms such a massive barrier that you can't overcome it is absurd. There are just too many examples that say otherwise.
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When we were the favorite in Big 12 tourney titles...I know we were sometimes when Rick had his best teams. When does Barnes ever beat a favorite...extremely rarely. That is one of the problems with R.B. Teams do beat favorites. Basketball is a statistical game and you have good nights and other teams have bad nights. R.B. very rarely gets his team to outperform.

As far as state of Texas losing...Yes, SMU lost a fluke game by goal tending a ball that was not going to go in, and Baylor played bad to lose (as did ISU). And we did as well as Stephen F. Austin and Texas Southern. Whoopeeee. Seriously, your state of Texas crap is as bad as your Kansas worship. The state of Texas now has plenty of talented high school ballers and that is what matters. Do they have a recruiting pool? This is not the '50's anymore whereby in high school there was only football. Do you really believe a team can't win from Texas? If you do what is the point? It is a failure by the Texas coach if we can't recruit the best team in Texas. There is really no excuse that we can't out recruit the likes of Baylor, SMU, Texas Tech, and the Aggies. It is also the fault of the coach if you can't get those recruits to perform at the highest level. IF WE RECRUITED THE TOP TALENT IN TEXAS WE WOULD HAVE A SUPER TEAM.

To spin all the Big 12 losses the other way...if the Big 12 was so bad, why did we finish in the bottom half of the conference and what does that say about us? For one it says we shouldn't have made the tourney and we only got in because of our name and power conference which you have discounted as being able to win or attract top talent. We have advantages because we are Texas not disadvantages.

Now let take one more look at what a terrific coach can do for a school:
2009–10 Arizona 16–15 10–8 4th
2010–11 Arizona 30–8 14–4 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2011–12 Arizona 23–12 12–6 4th NIT First Round
2012–13 Arizona 27–8 12–6 T–2nd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2013–14 Arizona 33–5 15–3 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2014–15 Arizona 32–3 16–2 1st NCAA
Arizona: 161–51 (.759) 79–29 (.731)
Total: 161–51 (.759)

And actually Barnes himself in his first decade demonstrates this. (But I could make a case for under performance in the tourney for the teams he had even then). But for a number of reasons I've mentioned before, he really hasn't executed for the last 7 years 7 years is a long enough grace period. If you want to disagree fine. I'm certainly willing to take a chance for another coach so that Texas might have a chance to surpass Kansas in my lifetime. UCLA is no longer the superpower they were under Wooden. These things ebb and flow and are not written in stone. A great coach can change everything.

Oh yea and you asked how did I come up with the 150 number of teams we are really competing against. I just threw out a number that I thought represented the power conferences and some number of mid majors. I just don't agree that we should consider beating out Niagra, Brown, or Prairie View as significant. Our recruiting advantages are too great. On another note, how many players has Xavier sent to the NBA. I think you'll find very few and yet they have outperformed us for the last 7 years.

 

[hornarama]

ESPN Top 100 preppers
CA 12
FL 10
TX 9
OH 4

I think this is best measure of whether you can win from Texas. We supply a comparable number of top recruits of anywhere. out of the the list of Texas players, A&M got 18,29,33,66 and we got 34, and 45, 35 went to Baylor, 36 to OklaSU, 50 to OhioSU, 67 to MSU.

More importantly, if you are that well represented in the top 100, then the next tier of players will be DEEP. And that is just one year. We have the opportunity year after year to tap into Texas talent. There is really no excuse for not putting together a good team, if you have recruiting power of Texas in a state deep with talent. The other thing is we are recruiting from the list of top 100, and most teams(i.e of the 450 you want to compare us against) don't have the luxury to do that.

 

[hornarama]

As far as selecting a head coach. I'm sure there are consulting firms that could vet both skill and other qualities of a coach. Out of the pool of coaches that the Texas job would be a big step up, I'm sure there are some great ones. And they should have a great track record succeeding at a lesser school. We can pay a top 10 salary and they will get to recruit from a position of power in a great state. It is a tremendous opportunity. It is certainly not the top job around, but it is up there.

 

[rickysrun]

Too bad Larry Brown is so old; I'd take him in a heartbeat. Shaka Smart will never leave VCU. I'd take either of the Miller brothers (preferably Sean), but Archie is a more realistic get. Even more realistic would be a back page article name like Brad Underwood. 8 seasons with Frank Martin (6 in the big 12) and a pretty hot start in our back yard with the Lumberjacks seems like the kind of guy Patterson would offer.

What's the problem with his age? Doing 10x the job RB did this year...at SMU nonetheless

 

[Htown77]

Hornarama, you ignore the fact that most instate basketball recruits know how this state feels about basketball and do not want play college ball here.

What this comes down to is state/school pride and how close it is to reality I suppose. I like to shout "Texas #1" with the rest of them, but I do not think it's the case with basketball. I overall disagree that this is some top job, where winning is easy in basketball. Rick Barnes will not be here forever. In fact, if he does not leave, i think he is going to be here five more years maximim. I am simply not in favor of running off the greatest coach in school history early based on unsubstaniated beliefs that may or may not be true about our basketball potential. We will go through plenty of coaches. Hopefully, one of them will be. A Wooden. Most of them will suck. It's possible to find a better coach, but it's not probable. I personally would like to enjoy a few more years of making the tournament, knowing I have a coach that has the proven ability to make the final four and is a proven winner. It's insane to fire a guy for outperforming anyone else that has ever had his job. I honestly think the odds are still in favor of Barnes winning more here in the next five years than someone new. Someone new might outperform, but i do not think it is a given like others do... especially in a state where Rick Barnes has the only final four since 1984.

 

[LikeMike]

Htown... NOT POSITIONED TO SUCCEED IN BASKETBALL?

Let's see: State is top 5 in HS talent, we can pay a top 10 salary, plan to build a new area (we can probably afford gold bathroom fixtures!), UT is the premiere public university in the Southwest, hosted the state tournament forever, located in Austin. Even today (and thanks to Barnes) we already have a national reputation.

My guess is that at least 300 of the current college basketball coaches would move tomorrow.

 

[rickysrun]

I am simply not in favor of running off the greatest coach in school history early based on unsubstaniated beliefs that may or may not be true about our basketball potential.

What does him being the greatest coach in program history have to do with anything? Get over that idea it simply doesn't matter. Barnes has been going off the momentum he gained in the first 1/3 of his tenure. The 2nd 1/3 was ok, the last 1/3 has been uninspiring and not reflective of a greatest coach in program history.
And what are the unsubstantiated beliefs? Not that it matters because the actual results are all the proof we need that Barnes' time at Texas needs to be up.

 

[Htown77]

I keep hearing we are a top 5 state in talent... yet where are the final fours and national titles from in-state schools? Where were the tournament wins this year? (the state went 0-5) The state's best postseason tournament win was A&M over Montana in the NIT. Why has this state only produced one final four team since 1984? Why is UTEP (which won by being one of the few integrated teams) the only school with a national title? Why did this state fail to put a single team in the NCAA tournament in 2013?

 

[txlandagent]

I think Tony Bennett actually is our best get. And, he's grossly underpaid at Virginia.

 

[txlandagent]

What's the problem with his age? Doing 10x the job RB did this year...at SMU nonetheless

74 is old. At present, it's not an issue and I'm a huge Larry Brown fan, but the next hire at Texas needs to be someone with long term potential. I just don't see LB coaching much longer.

 

[rickysrun]

74 is old. At present, it's not an issue and I'm a huge Larry Brown fan, but the next hire at Texas needs to be someone with long term potential. I just don't see LB coaching much longer.

Would you take 3-5 years of Larry brown? I sure as hell would. This program is in desperate need of a teacher of the game.

 

[Brad Austin]

The bottom line is are you content with the level of the program over the last 5 years? If so, and you think it's the best we can do, side with Barnes. I personally am not. I do believe we now have the national base level built well enough (thanks Barnes) to move higher and be even more successful. But we have topped out with Barnes. There's no reason we can't repeat what a small school like Butler did with Brad Stevens. None. Take a chance, bring in some new creative, energetic blood with a resume of success...and let's roll. I'd rather have a losing conference record after we rolled the dice for greener pastures, than to stand dormant and stink it up with Barnes again. This program is stale.

 

[Htown77]

I should clarify, I do agree I would certainly take 3-5 years of Larry Brown. I would make a trade for an elite coach. I am just not in a hurry to start rolling the dice on up and comers is all. Anyway, it is all up to Patterson.

 

[hornarama]

Hornarama, you ignore the fact that most instate basketball recruits know how this state feels about basketball and do not want play college ball here.

Why did 7 of the 9 Texas players in the top 100 list of espn commit to Texas schools...the top3 A&M? The facts belie your statement. And there are plenty of Texas players that end up in the pros and more than enough to to generate players for the flagship university of the state. How many Arizona players are there or Connecticut, and yet their state schools somehow excel. Part of the reason there haven't been major successes from Texas is that Texas has the best chance out of Texas we've just spent 17 years with one coach.
Between Houston and Dallas alone there are enough players to compete against anyone in the country. What about Houston back in the day with Phi Slamma Jamma, that only lost because they couldn't shoot foul shots. It was basically a Houston super team + Hakeem.

We've won 3 tourney games in 7 years, and have no conference or Big 12 tournament wins. We've finished top 25 once. THAT'S 7 YEARS. Do you see any signs that anyone....including recruits believe in Rick Barnes anymore? I don't get how you can ignore our shooting percentages and the year after year of bad offenses. He has been given a very generous grace period and has made over 14 Million in those 7 years to generate those 3 tourney wins and 1 top 25 finish. This is my last post because you are clinging to ancient history to go back a decade and say he has demonstrated he could get there. Well, he has demonstrated these last 7 years that he barely fields a top 50 team if that. Mac Brown demonstrated he could win a NC, but even that doesn't give you a lifetime job. You have to keep performing. And you have to show that you are addressing your deficiencies. Rick Barnes has done neither for a LONG time.

And half of the Big 12 teams are making the tournament these last couple of years. Why do you think we can't get a coach to do it again? Penders did much better than Barnes if you compare his record to Barnes last 7. He made the tourney almost every year and made an elite 8 and sweet 16. That was before basketball grew as a sport and was televised everywhere. Before Texas High school basketball has really grown up.

 

[Htown77]

Well there really is not much more to say. I think you overrate how easy it is to win in this state. You think I underrate how easy it is to win in this state.

I want to stick proven winner unless he grossly underperforms (and I do not think Barnes has grossly underperfromed but you do). You would rather roll the dice on a new guy that could be better, the same, or worse than Barnes.

There is not much more to say and it's all up to Patterson anyway.

For the sake of throwing one final argument out there, Mike Finger (SA express news writer) tweeted tonight about NCAA tournament wins. That might be a great way to judge a program and better than elite 8s and finals fours (weren't there only 8 or 16 teams invited when we went to the final fours in the 40s?)

Before Rick Barnes, in 60 or so years of the tournament, Texas won 16 NCAA tournament games. Rick Barnes has won 19 at Texas in 17 years. Over half of our 35 NCAA tournament wins are from Barnes, including the 3 in the past seven years.

 

[Htown77]

Also go look what the A&M coach has done in the past 4 years (not a single NCAA tournament appearance). Now all of a sudden, after 4 years of failure, he is getting top recruits? Maybe he is not cheating, maybe it's boosters doing it, but something is rotten in the state of denmark when it comes to aggie basketball recruiting right now.

Im not saying someone at a&m cant recruit, I am saying someone who has failed for four years and been unable to recruit does not suddenly get 3 top players to go to a&m and play sec basketball.

 

[TXLonghorndad]

Emails for the annual men's basketball banquet went out on Wednesday. It will be held on Tuesday, April 14, so I don't expect an announcement about Barnes before then, unless Barnes was to announce he was stepping down.

 

[ViperHorn]

Maybe he is not cheating, maybe it's boosters doing it, but something is rotten in the state of denmark when it comes to aggie basketball recruiting right now.

Im not saying someone at a&m cant recruit, I am saying someone who has failed for four years and been unable to recruit does not suddenly get 3 top players to go to a&m and play sec basketball.

+1

 

[caryhorn]

8 seasons with Frank Martin (6 in the big 12) and a pretty hot start in our back yard with the Lumberjacks seems like the kind of guy Patterson would offer.

I hate Frank Martin. Not that my hatred of Martin means anything at all vis a vis our next coach. His mad faces, his shake down of kids on the sideline, his yelling, spitting, temper tantrums on the sidelines. I am so glad he left KSU. Just so I wouldn't see him twice a year when the Horns played them. Just seeing his name on this thread about our next coach triggered a minor PTSD episode.