Cleaning up Syria: What Comes Next

Prigozhin (aka. The Cook) is most definitely involved in the conflict in Syria. He is tied to Russian state military just enough for the Russian military to deny involvement. He is called the Cook not just because he owns a food business but also because he owns rights to Plutonium reserves and serves unique dishes to Putin's rivals with a secret ingredient. This is a bad dude, no doubt.
 
That same WAPO article also addressed the vacillating accounts of what happened in Syria from the Russian side, which track some of the claims made here.

First the Russian Govt strenuously denied involvement. The Russian Defense Ministry said only that a "pro-government militia unit" had been conducting “surveillance and research” into the activities of a militant group, presumably the Islamic State, that had been firing mortars at government positions.

Then the story changed to most of the dead were Russian mercenaries. The Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman claimed only five Russian citizens might have been killed.

Then a new statement was issued where they acknowledged “several dozen” Russians were killed or wounded in the attack and that the wounded had been “provided assistance to return to Russia ... where they are undergoing medical treatment at a number of hospitals.”

Next week, maybe something else
 
JoeFan, the account I heard estimated up to 600 Russians involved but it is hard to tell because 90% were killed on the battlefield and abandoned.

Also, don't believe that the wounded are being cared for. Because they are a political liability they will most likely be left to their own resources in Syria which means most of them will die later. It is truly a tragic story for the men employed by Wagner.
 
Here is the ISW version.
It's reasonably short and an easy read

http://iswresearch.blogspot.com/2018/02/weak-us-response-to-russian-proxies.html
The footnoted source matl is in the link

" .... The Kremlin nevertheless likely knew of and permitted the attack on U.S. and partner forces on February 7. The Kremlin has used proxy forces in the past to maintain plausible deniability and shed accountability for aggressive actions abroad. Wagner is a private military company with close ties to the Kremlin and Russian military forces. Dmitry Utkin – a former Russian special forces officer – founded the company. Wagner reportedly trains recruits at a shared base with Russian Special Forces near Molkino, Russia. It has played an important role supporting Russian military operations. Wagner operated as a Kremlin proxy in Ukraine, fighting alongside Russian-backed separatists and in coordination with the Armed Forces of Russia.[1] Wagner deployed to Syria in 2015 and played a key role in the Russia-backed offensives to retake oil-rich areas in Palmyra and Deir ez-Zour Province from the Islamic State of Iraq and al Sham (ISIS). The Russian Ministry of Defense has provided direct support to Wagner in Syria through both arms andtransport.[2]

The indictments handed down by U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller significantly reduce the plausibility of attempts to deny Kremlin control over Wagner's actions. Russian businessman Evgeni Prigozhin is a close ally of President Vladimir Putin and a known associate of Dmitry Utkin. His business empire includes Wagner. The Kremlin leverages Prigozhin's businesses as a proxy tool to achieve various foreign policy objectives while maintaining plausible deniability. Special Counsel Mueller indicted Prigozhin for attempting to undermine the 2016 U.S. presidential election on February 16, 2018. Prigozhin served as the financier of a company that purchased private networks in the U.S. to establish fraudulent social media profiles allegedly posing as U.S. persons in order to defraud U.S. elections according to the indictment.

The Kremlin likely benefits economically from Wagner’s involvement in Syria as well. Utkin commands Wagner in seizing and securing Syrian oil fields in Eastern Syria. The Prigozhin-led company Evro Polis signed acontract with the Syrian regime’s state-owned petroleum company. The contract allocates 25 percent of all revenue from oil and gas facilities in Syria seized with the assistance of Russian forces to Evro Polis. These revenues are likely channeled to support the Putin regime....."​
 
RUS%2BPMC%2BGRAPHIC%2BFinal-01.png
 
Joe, I heard Prigozhin gets 50% of the oil revenue, but maybe 25% goes into one account and more into others. Who knows.
 
Musburger1 said:
All we know for sure are a few facts and several versions of the reality. From South Fromt: https://southfront.org/u-s-strikes-and-scores-of-killed-russian-fighters-in-syria/
Mainstream media outlets and social media are full of reports that on February 7th hundreds of Russian private military contractors (PMCs) died in US-led coalition airstrikes on pro-government forces in the province of Deir Ezzor. Various sources provide different numbers, but one of the most popular versions is that between 100 and 600 PMCs were killed.

So, what is going on?

On February 8, the US-led coalition released a statement saying that on February 7th it had struck “pro-regime forces” attacking “Syrian Democratic Forces headquarters” in the Euphrates Valley. According to local sources, the US strikes hit the positions of pro-government forces near the village of Khasham. The CONICO gas facility and the nearby Jafar oil field were reportedly the targets of the alleged attack.

The US military described its actions as “defensive”. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis even claimed that the incident does not mean that Washington is “getting engaged in the Syrian civil war”. The Pentagon also said that it had informed the Russians via the de-confliction line in advance of the attack and no Russian personnel were there.

According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the US-led coalition struck a local militia conducting a military operation against ISIS cells in the area of al-Isba. 25 militiamen were killed in the incident.

Meanwhile, the pro-government Arab tribe al-Bakara announced in an official statement that dozens of its sons were killed in the US strikes without providing a precise number.

Later, on February 11, the ISIS Hunters of the 5th Assault Corps of the Syrian Arab Army said that on February 7th they had repelled a joint attack from ISIS and the SDF on Khasham and this had caused the US attack. The unit added that they had lost 20 fighters in the strikes. The ISIS Hunters are known for their links to Russian PMCs.

But there is another side to the story.

On February 7 and on February 8, the English-speaking mainstream media, like Politico, Reuters, CNN, were spreading reports that over 100 pro-Assad fighters were killed in the US strikes. All the reports were based on anonymous sources and were mixed with statements from the Pentagon and the defense secretary to look more reliable. According to these reports, a group of 300-500 government fighters, backed up by battle tanks and artillery, were involved in the alleged attack on the SDF.

On February 8, some infamous figures and media outlets of the Russian media sphere started spreading reports that Russian PMCs had suffered mass casualties in the February 7 incident. The conflicting reports, also based on anonymous sources, included estimates such as “two truckloads of dead bodies”, 10-20 killed, 100, 200, 300, 600.

On February 10, the Russian telegram channel WarGonzo posted 5 audio recordings of an alleged conversation among 3 PMCs. One of the voices provides the number of 177 killed. These audio recordings had also been received by a number of Russian journalists since February 7 and were most likely a forgery.

By February 14, reports had settled at a general number of 10-600 dead PMCs.

Meanwhile, the analysis of open info, including reports from relatives and friends of the PMCs involved in the operation, allowed all the concerned sides to find out that 5 Russians reportedly died in the aforementioned period. However, no details are available.

Independent journalists also noted that no aircraft, which could have been involved in the transfer of the killed and injured PMCs, had been spotted at Khmeimim Air Base since February 7. SouthFront correspondents and sources in Damascus and Deir Ezzor can also not confirm information regarding the hundreds of killed PMCs.

SouthFront’s military experts aware of the situation say that the possible number of the casualties could be higher than 5, but not more than 15-20.

The entire story about mass casualties of Russian PMCs is based on unconfirmed and fake data, that includes a few real facts like the US strikes, some PMCs casualties and the participation of the ISIS Hunters in the incident. The rest is an orchestrated campaign in keeping with the best traditions of propaganda.

The goals of which would be that:

  • the US is able to fight back against the Russians in Syria;
  • Russia is not able to defend its interests;
  • the Kremlin is not concerned over killed Russian citizens or is not able to carry out any pay back.
Click to expand...

IMO, these recordings confirm my original post while wholly undermining your original responses to it. The link below has the clips if you want to verify the translations from Russian --

"On February 11, Polygraph.info acquired three separate audio recordings from a source close to Kremlin, who claimed the people speaking on the recordings are personnel from “CHVK Wagner,” and the audio-clips are recorded phone conversations. CHVK is the Russian abbreviation for “Private Military Company.”

The man on the longest audio clip, speaking Russian with a Moscow accent, detailed what he said was “our failed attack” against a U.S.-held oil refinery in Deir el-Zour on the night of February 7-8.
“The reports that are on TV about … well, you know, about Syria and the 25 people that are wounded there from the Syrian f*** Army and -- well ... to make it short, we’ve had our asses f*** kicked. So, one squadron f**** lost 200 people …right away, another one lost 10 people… and I don’t know about the third squadron but it got torn up pretty badly, too... So three squadrons took a beating… The Yankees attacked… first they blasted the f*** out of us by artillery and then they took four helicopters up and pushed us in a f*** merry-go-round with heavy caliber machine guns….They were all shelling the holy f*** out of it and our guys didn’t have anything besides the assault rifles… nothing at all, not even mentioning shoulder-fired SAMs or anything like that…So they tore us to pieces for sure, put us through hell, and the Yankees knew for sure that the Russians were coming, that it was us, f*** Russians… Our guys were going to commandeer an oil refinery and the Yankees were holding it… We got our f**** asses beat rough, my men called me... They’re there drinking now… many have gone missing… it’s a total f***-up, it sucks, another takedown….Everybody, you know, treats us like pieces of sh*** ... They beat our asses like we were little pieces of sh***... but our f*** government will go in reverse now and nobody will respond or anything and nobody will punish anyone for this... So these are our casualties…​
The second audio clip:
“Out of all vehicles only one tank survived and one BRDM (Armored Reconnaissance Vehicle) after the attack, all other BRDMs and tanks were destroyed in the first minutes of the fight, right away.”​
The third audio clip:
“Just had a call with a guy; so they basically formed a convoy, but did not get to their f*** positions by some three hundred meters. One unit moved forward, the convoy remained in place, about 300 meters from the others. The others raised the American f*** flag and their artillery started f*** ours really hard. Then their f*** choppers flew in and starter f*** everybody. Ours just running around. Just got a call from a pal, so there are about 215 f*** killed. They simply rolled ours out f*** hard. Made their point. What the f*** ours were hoping for in there?! That they will f*** run away themselves? Hoped to f*** scare them away? Lots of people f*** so bad [they] can’t be f*** ID-d. There was no foot soldiers [on the American side]; they simply f*** our convoy with artillery.”​
https://www.polygraph.info/a/us-wagner-russia-syria-scores-killed/29044339.html​
 
Joe Fan said:
IMO, these recordings confirm my original post while wholly undermining your original responses to it. The link below has the clips if you want to verify the translations from Russian --

"On February 11, Polygraph.info acquired three separate audio recordings from a source close to Kremlin, who claimed the people speaking on the recordings are personnel from “CHVK Wagner,” and the audio-clips are recorded phone conversations. CHVK is the Russian abbreviation for “Private Military Company.”

The man on the longest audio clip, speaking Russian with a Moscow accent, detailed what he said was “our failed attack” against a U.S.-held oil refinery in Deir el-Zour on the night of February 7-8.
“The reports that are on TV about … well, you know, about Syria and the 25 people that are wounded there from the Syrian f*** Army and -- well ... to make it short, we’ve had our asses f*** kicked. So, one squadron f**** lost 200 people …right away, another one lost 10 people… and I don’t know about the third squadron but it got torn up pretty badly, too... So three squadrons took a beating… The Yankees attacked… first they blasted the f*** out of us by artillery and then they took four helicopters up and pushed us in a f*** merry-go-round with heavy caliber machine guns….They were all shelling the holy f*** out of it and our guys didn’t have anything besides the assault rifles… nothing at all, not even mentioning shoulder-fired SAMs or anything like that…So they tore us to pieces for sure, put us through hell, and the Yankees knew for sure that the Russians were coming, that it was us, f*** Russians… Our guys were going to commandeer an oil refinery and the Yankees were holding it… We got our f**** asses beat rough, my men called me... They’re there drinking now… many have gone missing… it’s a total f***-up, it sucks, another takedown….Everybody, you know, treats us like pieces of sh*** ... They beat our asses like we were little pieces of sh***... but our f*** government will go in reverse now and nobody will respond or anything and nobody will punish anyone for this... So these are our casualties…​
The second audio clip:
“Out of all vehicles only one tank survived and one BRDM (Armored Reconnaissance Vehicle) after the attack, all other BRDMs and tanks were destroyed in the first minutes of the fight, right away.”​
The third audio clip:
“Just had a call with a guy; so they basically formed a convoy, but did not get to their f*** positions by some three hundred meters. One unit moved forward, the convoy remained in place, about 300 meters from the others. The others raised the American f*** flag and their artillery started f*** ours really hard. Then their f*** choppers flew in and starter f*** everybody. Ours just running around. Just got a call from a pal, so there are about 215 f*** killed. They simply rolled ours out f*** hard. Made their point. What the f*** ours were hoping for in there?! That they will f*** run away themselves? Hoped to f*** scare them away? Lots of people f*** so bad [they] can’t be f*** ID-d. There was no foot soldiers [on the American side]; they simply f*** our convoy with artillery.”​
https://www.polygraph.info/a/us-wagner-russia-syria-scores-killed/29044339.html​
Click to expand...
Newsbud used the article you pasted as a source (https://www.polygraph.info/a/us-wagner-russia-syria-scores-killed/29044339.html) so the article is most likely accurate.

Found an interesting peace by Mercouris that goes into great detail about each of the parties objectives with respect to what they hope to achieve in Syria. Recommended for any one trying to make sense of what's going on. It's long and quite thorough.

http://theduran.com/syria-turkey-russia-kurds-struggle-afrin/
 
Joe Fan said:
Click to expand...

The NY Times article comes on the heel of the 60 minute hit piece making the same accusations. It’s obvious that the media - with Deep State sponsoring - is combing facts with propaganda to prepare for US escalation in Syria and garner public support. All I can say is don’t forget Iraq. The same techniques used there are being repeated.
 
Musburger1 said:
.... is combing facts with propaganda to prepare for US escalation in Syria and garner public support. All I can say is don’t forget Iraq. The same techniques used there are being repeated.
Click to expand...

You do not believe any chem weapons have been used in Syria?
 
Joe Fan said:
You do not believe any chem weapons have been used in Syria?
Click to expand...
Oh there has been chemical weapons. Who used them is debatable. The motive for Assad to use them is non-existent. The motive for the opposition to use them is apparent; blame Assad and hence legitimize US attacks against him.
 
Joe Fan said:
IMO, these recordings confirm my original post while wholly undermining your original responses to it. The link below has the clips if you want to verify the translations from Russian --

"On February 11, Polygraph.info acquired three separate audio recordings from a source close to Kremlin, who claimed the people speaking on the recordings are personnel from “CHVK Wagner,” and the audio-clips are recorded phone conversations. CHVK is the Russian abbreviation for “Private Military Company.”

The man on the longest audio clip, speaking Russian with a Moscow accent, detailed what he said was “our failed attack” against a U.S.-held oil refinery in Deir el-Zour on the night of February 7-8.
“The reports that are on TV about … well, you know, about Syria and the 25 people that are wounded there from the Syrian f*** Army and -- well ... to make it short, we’ve had our asses f*** kicked. So, one squadron f**** lost 200 people …right away, another one lost 10 people… and I don’t know about the third squadron but it got torn up pretty badly, too... So three squadrons took a beating… The Yankees attacked… first they blasted the f*** out of us by artillery and then they took four helicopters up and pushed us in a f*** merry-go-round with heavy caliber machine guns….They were all shelling the holy f*** out of it and our guys didn’t have anything besides the assault rifles… nothing at all, not even mentioning shoulder-fired SAMs or anything like that…So they tore us to pieces for sure, put us through hell, and the Yankees knew for sure that the Russians were coming, that it was us, f*** Russians… Our guys were going to commandeer an oil refinery and the Yankees were holding it… We got our f**** asses beat rough, my men called me... They’re there drinking now… many have gone missing… it’s a total f***-up, it sucks, another takedown….Everybody, you know, treats us like pieces of sh*** ... They beat our asses like we were little pieces of sh***... but our f*** government will go in reverse now and nobody will respond or anything and nobody will punish anyone for this... So these are our casualties…​
The second audio clip:
“Out of all vehicles only one tank survived and one BRDM (Armored Reconnaissance Vehicle) after the attack, all other BRDMs and tanks were destroyed in the first minutes of the fight, right away.”​
The third audio clip:
“Just had a call with a guy; so they basically formed a convoy, but did not get to their f*** positions by some three hundred meters. One unit moved forward, the convoy remained in place, about 300 meters from the others. The others raised the American f*** flag and their artillery started f*** ours really hard. Then their f*** choppers flew in and starter f*** everybody. Ours just running around. Just got a call from a pal, so there are about 215 f*** killed. They simply rolled ours out f*** hard. Made their point. What the f*** ours were hoping for in there?! That they will f*** run away themselves? Hoped to f*** scare them away? Lots of people f*** so bad [they] can’t be f*** ID-d. There was no foot soldiers [on the American side]; they simply f*** our convoy with artillery.”​
https://www.polygraph.info/a/us-wagner-russia-syria-scores-killed/29044339.html​
Click to expand...
You have got to love the *** kicking U.S. forces put on the Rooskies (even though, as Musberger and his ineffective and weak leadership said, they were not Rooskies and they did nothing wrong). The quote about those that survived "drinking" after the *** kicking is classic, as is the reference to the "merry go round".
 
iatrogenic said:
You have got to love the *** kicking U.S. forces put on the Rooskies (even though, as Musberger and his ineffective and weak leadership said, they were not Rooskies and they did nothing wrong). The quote about those that survived "drinking" after the *** kicking is classic, as is the reference to the "merry go round".
Click to expand...
Hey dumb sh_t, which side is losing the war?
 
If your criteria is body count and inflicting massive damage, the US always produces high numbers. But if your criteria is obtaining objectives, the US falls dramatically short.

Because of the Syrian conflict, the US has lost influence in the Middle East to both Iran and Russia. Europe has seen a massive influx of refugees (or worse), and the percentage of military expenditures continues to grow adding hundreds of billions of additional debt. This isn’t victory. It’s failure and it’s 100% opposite of what Trump campaigned on.
 
Joe Fan said:
Everyone involved?
Click to expand...
Iran has at least temporary been a winner in the geopolitical sense. Both Lebanon and Syria are in the process of hardening their air defenses which serves as a deterrent to Israel. Russia has been the mediator of choice to settle disputes in the region as the US is increasingly left out the process. So while everybody suffers losses in the war, proportionally the losses have been greatest to the US among the major powers.
 
Musburger1 said:
Iran has at least temporary been a winner in the geopolitical sense.....
Click to expand...

Disagree. The Saudis and other GCC contributors + Israel have been systematically taking out IRGC/Hezbollah leadership throughout Syria. It's a very long list of dead, even generals, and is going to set them back for some time. I wrote about this before on another thread.
 
Musburger1 said:
Hey dumb sh_t, which side is losing the war?
Click to expand...
Let's go to the scoreboard:

Russian GNP Per Capita: $9,720

United States GNP Per Capita: $56,810

If it were a horse race you would have been shot in the head long ago for having three broken legs.
 
iatrogenic said:
Let's go to the scoreboard:

Russian GNP Per Capita: $9,720

United States GNP Per Capita: $56,810

If it were a horse race you would have been shot in the head long ago for having three broken legs.
Click to expand...
The statistic is utterly meaningless.
First point, the Russian lifestyle is less dependent on high GDP. It’s not necessary to own multiple cars, people grow more of their own food, etc.
Second, GDP is lower in Russia but the debt to GDP ratio is higher in the US.
Third, as income inequality increasingly grows, GDP per capita is less relevant than median data. The average in the US in economic statistical categories remain high but the median isn’t doing nearly so well.
 
Joe Fan said:
Disagree. The Saudis and other GCC contributors + Israel have been systematically taking out IRGC/Hezbollah leadership throughout Syria. It's a very long list of dead, even generals, and is going to set them back for some time. I wrote about this before on another thread.
Click to expand...
”The Saudis and other GCC contributors.”

You mean terror sponsors and financiers of terror.
 
Musburger1 said:
The statistic is utterly meaningless.
First point, the Russian lifestyle is less dependent on high GDP. It’s not necessary to own multiple cars, people grow more of their own food, etc.
Second, GDP is lower in Russia but the debt to GDP ratio is higher in the US.
Third, as income inequality increasingly grows, GDP per capita is less relevant than median data. The average in the US in economic statistical categories remain high but the median isn’t doing nearly so well.
Click to expand...
:tap:

Lifestyle? If you are referring to poverty then yes, poverty is not dependent on more GNP. It is also true that people don't "need" two cars. One decent one would be nice for Russians, however. If by stating "people can grow more of their own food" you mean "unless they want to starve, people must continue the outmoded agricultural economy surpassed by non-third-world loser countries", I agree.

As I have pointed out to you previously, the "median" measure is useless and only employed to advance fraudulent arguments.
 
iatrogenic said:
:tap:

Lifestyle? If you are referring to poverty then yes, poverty is not dependent on more GNP. It is also true that people don't "need" two cars. One decent one would be nice for Russians, however. If by stating "people can grow more of their own food" you mean "unless they want to starve, people must continue the outmoded agricultural economy surpassed by non-third-world loser countries", I agree.

As I have pointed out to you previously, the "median" measure is useless and only employed to advance fraudulent arguments.
Click to expand...
Guess what nation is surpassing the US in wheat exportation?
 
iatrogenic said:
Let's go to the scoreboard:
Russian GNP Per Capita: $9,720
United States GNP Per Capita: $56,810
If it were a horse race you would have been shot in the head long ago for having three broken legs.
Click to expand...

Sorry troll farmers but the GDP for the state of Texas is larger than Russia's
 
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