Carrier just announced
- Thread starter Horn6721
- Start date
Silence. When you know you are winning.
We will likely learn the details soon that will include incentives from the state since Carrier thanked Pence along with Trump as well as hearing from Trump that some fed regulations that affect Carrier and others will be eased when Trump takes office
Not to mention the YUGE cut in corporate tax rate .
Not to mention the YUGE cut in corporate tax rate .
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
If the incentives are specific to Carrier (e.g. taxpayer subsidies) I'm not impressed. If they are across the board lowering of tax rates or something not reeking of corporate welfare, then I'm impressed.
If the jobs were not going to exist after the move, there is no taxpayer subsidy. States, cities, and counties are very similar to corporations. In fact, New York city was formerly a branch of the Dutch West India Company. They have to compete for business. Lowering the price of your product or service is one way of competing.
By staying, Carrier's action reeks of providing welfare for the State of Indiana.
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They do, and it's sleazy. If you're OK with economic fascism, then so be it. (And while you're at it, don't complain about things like single payer health care and subsidies to companies like Solyndra.) However, if you like free and open markets and capitalism, then this is a bad thing.
I do not understand how it is economic fascism or why it is sleazy. Do any of these government entities force companies to accept tax incentives, or is their choice to evaluate them?
I don't blame the companies for accepting them. Who would turn down easy money? I blame the government for offering them.
I'm a simple guy, but don't these companies who threaten to take their manufacturing to other countries have some blame? I know it is complicated, but lowering tax rates and keeping jobs here adds to our economy, right?
The companies have a duty to do what's best for their shareholders. Unless they're breaking the law, you can't blame them for doing that. It's not against the law for them to threaten to take their manufacturing overseas or to actually do so.
It does. However, governments for nations that claim to maintain free market economies aren't supposed to pick winners and losers by granting special tax benefits to individual companies and industries. That leads to market distortion, cronyism, and ultimately corruption, economic inefficiency, and injustice. Who decides what companies get this special treatment? What criteria do they apply? Will companies in preferred industries begin to rely on the special treatment and not try as hard to be efficient because they don't have to in order to stay in business? Is it fair to make other companies and individuals pay higher taxes than they'd otherwise have to pay to dole out these goodies? I don't think it is.
What I'd rather see is the government keep taxes as low as possible across the board and let the chips fall where they may.
Are there a bunch of air conditioning manufacturers clamoring to go to Indiana? I thought the state and now trump are trying to work to convince them to stay because jobs will be lost otherwise. If Carrier is just one of many then who cares if they leave?
Nobody wants them to leave, because it will cost jobs and hurt the local and state economy. The issue is whether or not we should be willing to distort the market and engage in a little fascism to keep them from leaving. I wouldn't do it.
texas_ex2000
2,500+ Posts
I don't think there's anything fascist about favoring US companies in defense contracts (e.g. UTC). Same principle with federal grants to colleges that didn't allow ROTC.
And certainly, if these were part of the deal, corporate tax incentives are free market policies.
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Fascism implies a dictatorship. They have a choice of staying or not. That's not fascism.
Again, no other companies I am aware of are competing for these tax incentives, so there is no favoring of one company over another here.
I'm talking about economic fascism. The dictatorship angle isn't what makes it fascist.
That's not the point. If you're giving out tax incentives, then something other than the market is driving the company's decision, and yes, one company is being favored. You can't give tax incentives to everybody.
Giving US companies in defense contracts isn't fascist, but it is corporate welfare and sometimes leads to the taxpayer getting ripped off.
?????
texas_ex2000
2,500+ Posts
Taxes are antithetic to a free market economy.
Mexico's corporate tax rate is 30%. The US corporate tax rate is 39%.
Tax incentives (meaning carving out special tax treatment for certain companies and industries) certainly is not free market. It's corporate welfare.
texas_ex2000
2,500+ Posts
I would argue corporate welfare is a case by case basis and more accurately government grants. Part of what drives "special tax treatment" or "tax incentives" or what I call a lower, more competitive tax rate (because that what it is), is demand from the local economy for the presence of that company and what they bring to the local economy. It's the reason why people and companies are free and have chosen to move to Texas where Texans have supported such policies, and away from high tax states where people do not support those policies. And it's the principle that underlines the global free market.
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Well, I disagree that it is fascism at all, economic or otherwise, and I am in favor of tax incentives for corporations.
Federal incentives that are selectively given would not be free market
So far there is no evidence that what Trump offered was exclusive to this one company
What Indiana and Indianapolis offered is similar to what any state city can and does offer
There usually is competition among states and cities to lure cmpanies to locate to their area
And that seems pretty free market
So far there is no evidence that what Trump offered was exclusive to this one company
What Indiana and Indianapolis offered is similar to what any state city can and does offer
There usually is competition among states and cities to lure cmpanies to locate to their area
And that seems pretty free market
Can anyone argue that at least Trump intervened to try and keep jobs in the USA? Good god, that is why he was elected. People are tired of politicians who talk, but do nothing. I for one believe this is a great sign of things to come for the economy. You guys continue your fascism talk while employees of Carrier in Indiana celebrate keeping their jobs.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
It is amazing. But you knew it was coming as soon as you saw the story.
100s of jobs in Indiana saved.
Yet somehow a "bad" thing.
Why?
Because Trump, boo hoo.
Brad Austin
2,500+ Posts
Typical
texas_ex2000
2,500+ Posts
As I said before, I see sawed on my vote for Trump until a few days before the election when I came to the conclusion that I couldn't believe what the media was telling me...that in fact the confusing and shoddy reporting on Trump was something more subversive. But make no mistake, I was not, and still not really, a Trump fan or a Trump supporter per se.
That said, I couldn't really have seen Kasich or Rubio (who I liked), for example, doing what Trump did with Carrier. That's the difference between a business person and a politician.
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