A teenager's right to think

E

elface

250+ Posts
My daughter is taking h.s. speech in summer school. She is 13. They have moved into debate in the first week. Her group was assigned the pro side of abolishing the death penalty.

Her mother strongly believes in the con side. After the two strong females discussed the issue over the afternoon. Her mother forbid her from taking the pro side. When my daughter protested and said, I have the right to my own opinion; The mother told her that she does, but not for this issue. The issue is too great and you have to be obedient to your mother.

As background, her mother was born in China and matriculated thru medical school there, before coming to the U.S. She strongly believes that the communists effectively ended drug use and mafia corruption, by summarily executing the alleged perpetrators and this was the correct procedure. Metaphorically, to cure the illness in the body one must cut out the disease.

We are divorced, so what I say has little effect, but my idea is that a kid stakes a position and then thru experience and contemplation, begins to develop a natural opinion. The keystone is that it is the kid's opinion and the journey belongs to the kid. The parent monitors and intercedes, but does not command in regards to issues like these. When it's issues about homework, dating, going out, drinking, drug use--these are the issues in which a parent commands.

The resolution of "let's agree to disagree" doesn't work in this situation...my suggestion of changing her cell phone ring to TMBG's "right to think" lost out to some rap song.
 
There are several issues at work here.

Regarding the title of the post, whether a parent, a teacher, a coach, or any authority figure wants to argue about a teenager's "right" to think, the fact remains that a teenager has the ABILITY to think. In fact, that ABILITY isn't even one that can be curtailed. A teenager WILL think what they choose to think. An authority figure may be able to curtail a teenager's ability to COMMUNICATE their thoughts, but it is unlikely that they will be able to curtail a teenager's ability to THINK whatever thoughts they choose.

It is likely that there are deep cultural differences between your wife's idea of parenting and your own and probably your daughter's ideas about the parent/child relationship and what rights she has as an individual, especially in matters of opinion. From your ex-wife's perspective, is this an issue of honoring thy mother and father? Is that something that she and your daughter can talk about, regardless of the particular subject of debate?

Lastly, this is a speech class. It is a valuable learning experience to argue for a position with which you do not personally agree. Does your daughter personally agree or disagree with the death penalty? It sounds like she "lucked out" and got the side with which she thinks she agrees. Does she see the value in learning to argue either position as a means of learning effective speech strategies? What do you mean that her mother is really going to "forbid" her from taking the pro side? Is she going to require that her teacher switch the sides of the groups that are debating or assign her to a different group?
 
The mother's position is silly. The daughter's team was assigned a position to argue. Much like a public defender, you don't have to believe a word your client says in order to defend him. You research the topic, you find the most persuasive arguments for your side, and then you articulate them. Afterwards, you have a beer with opposing counsel.

I suggest The Beastie Boys' "Fight For Your Right (To Party)."
 
Yea, does the mom not understand this is a class assignment? The daugher was assigned her position. This is common practice in speech classes.

I remember we had to debate in my Sport Law class at The University. We were assigned our position, and it didn't matter how awful you thought it was, you argued it.
 
yeah, its an assignment, i think its silly to not let the kid argue it. however, maybe tell the mother that one of the best ways to understand your position is to attempt to argue for the other side.

well maybe not the best but is it better to grow up to be someone who just believes whatever they hear or to be able to properly analyze and dissect a position so that one can make an informed decision? I'd hope my kid could think for themselves and make a mature/educated decision even if it went against what i believed. that being said, i dont have kids so i might just be a huge idoit. and the situation does seem tricky with lots of different roles to consider, seems like something that should be handled with care.
 
In some debates, there could be extenuating circumstances that the school should allow the student to switch sides in a debate or drop out completely. What if the father of a child had been executed for a crime, and the child was told they had to take the Pro side of executions. I would think the student should be allowed a pass on that debate since its personal.
 
"Forbid" was my daughter's characterization. I spoke to her mother...she explained that she told her you have to listen to me on this issue, because I am more experienced. She denies that she told her to switch sides on the debate for class. My daughter believes her message is that class is class, but you need to believe what I believe.

Yes, my kid is arguing the side that she believes in and no, she doesn't get the idea of intellectual flexibility.

In researching the issue, she learned about religious reasons for abolishing the death penalty.

For some reason after my son's soccer game, the existence of God came up. My daughter questioned her mother intensively about her belief in God.

I'm agnostic and we attend the unitarian church sporadically. Her mother has always been a determined atheist.

Her mother's response was very honest--sometimes-- but unsatisfactory for my daughter. This has led my daughter to a renewed interest in independent bible study in which she used her allowance to buy bibles at half price books. Several years ago, she asked to be baptized catholic, but the local church wouldn't do it without both parents signing off. Her mother asked her if she really believes that crap.

And my daughter has now contacted mormon missionaries to stop by for a visit.

I realize my daughter is forging her independence here, but I always thought I'd be dealing with hormonally excited boys and not door to door religious missionaries. In this brave new world, the sins of the father shall be visited upon the daughter.
 
In your case, the smart move is to tacitly acknowledge your daughter's freedom of thought whenever you're with her, but maintain neutrality as far as the disagreement between your ex-wife and daughter go. Don't offer to be a peacemaker, either. The ex-wife is fighting a battle she can't win here on enemy ground (the USA). No need to put yourself in the middle of it when its going to work itself out, eventually, anyway.

I wouldn't want to position myself between two strong-willed females.

On the other hand, when I think of your daughter's situation, I keep seeing James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause, standing at the base of the stairs. His mother, domineering and certain, stands a few steps above, insisting that Dean's character not tell the police about the tragedy from earlier that night; his father sits silently slumped in a chair a few feet away, his head in his hands. Dean: "You better give me something, Dad. You better give me something fast." But the father is silent, and more chaos ensues.

Your daughter is spiritually searching, and I can only imagine that your agnosticism looks comparatively weak-hearted next to your ex-wife's "determined atheism." I hate to be preachy, and I'll apologize in advance for it, but it might be time to review the status and the value of your agnosticism. I can appreciate the intellectual honesty of that position -- the idea that we can't really know, in the strictest sense of that word, about the events of thousands of years ago and the nature of God Himself. I'm empathetic to that position.

But at some point, I believe, we have to make a decision about what we think happened, about what we believe to be the case regarding God and spiritual reality. Either Christ died for our sins or He didn't. Agnosticism is a waypoint, not a destination. Maybe this episode with your daughter is a necessary thing to move you along that path. In any case, I wish you the best.

I'm not a Catholic, but if it were me, I'd go to the Catholic Church with her, see if anything interesting is going on.
 
Your daughter sounds like a smart girl that likes to research before she makes a informed decision. Nothing wrong with that
 
Does your wife not understand debate at all? They often ask what you believe, then intentionally assign you the other side. That's how you learn debate.
 
If she competes in debate, they make you switch from affirmative to negative sides of the same issue.

what are the consequences of going against her mom's orders? How old is your daughter> if she is 12 or older and wants to live with you, you should tag this INTERFERENCE WITH HER EDUCATION (awful thing she is doing), on to wanting to live with you, and file a custody modification.

she is stifling that girls intellectual growth and could endanger her academic achievement.
 
I work w/ middle school age kids. Around 12-14, they get really hard on eachother to "believe" the same things. Your daughter probably sees that it would be "easier" to fit in if she was christian, so she's pursuing it.

Let her do it. She'll find her own way.
 
I think I'd **** a bowflex ( to paraphrase Scipio) if my daughter just independently called some Mormons up to come over and proselytize. I guess if you disallow it you make it worse.

Thanks for freaking me smooth out.
 
I think the assignment is the assignment. If the kid has a belief about it that is understandable, but it sounds like she is prepared to do the legwork, so more power to her. I can't count the number of things I saw as black and white when I was 13 that look decidedly grey to me now. The important point is if you are going to have an opinion you have a responsibility to be informed, that is the lesson which she needs to take from this... and it sounds like she's doing that.

Now about the inviting the mormons over, there could be a number of different reasons for this ranging from trying to get a rise out of her parents to actual intellectual curiosity. If she arranged this without telling anyone before hand, I'd likely favor the former explanation. In either event, there is only one good course of action. You make sure that you can be in the house when they are there, you make sure she treats them respectfully and you stay with her the whole time as serious as a heart attack. If she is heading down the road earnestly, then you need to be there because of your relationship with her. If she is doing this to assert her own authority, then it would be a mistake to not take her seriously because if you don't the next assertion could be harder to deal with (ie, baby, drugs, etc). If she is just curious about how it all works, then you could probably stand to take an interest in what she is taking in an interest in because it will pay out in the long run. In any event, the result should be the same in any event.
 
The point is "class assignment for speech class." This is a key skill in debate. If you are on the debate team, you would have to debate the issue pro one day, con the next, or even on the same day. You would need to sound convincing without giving away how you really feel about the issue.
Maybe feelings held deeply would prevent some people from wanting to take the opposite side in a debate, and this is understandable, so it is a thorny issue.
If she can get past the idea that she doesn't have to alter her view on the issue, maybe she can go ahead and do well on the assignment. Otherwise she will have to take a moral stand on the issue and refuse to do the assignment.
But at that age, her views are likely those of her parents anyhow, and she may well change over the next few years as she develops her own take on things.
 
I think I was 14 when the Mormons called our house one day to see if they could stop by one afternoon. At that time, I was coming home after school with time to kill before the folks got home (my sport was in off-season). So I said sure, come on by tomorrow, I'll make some iced tea. Understand that I was in Catholic school, and had been since I was 6. But I was curious, and figured what could the harm be.

Two really nice guys came over, we drank tea, and shot the breeze. Then they got into their pitch, and gave me a Book of Mormon. When we got to the big-picture stuff, I paged to the right parts of the book, and ended up saying "you guys really believe this stuff?" I did my best not to laugh, as I wanted to be polite (seriously -- Joseph Smith was batshit crazy). As we kept talking, I told them that I appreciated their effort, and was glad to have learned something today, and that was that.

At 13, your daughter is thinking, and looking for answers as she just begins to formulate the questions. Make sure that she has the skills to ask the right questions, and to discern the answers. And on the big issues -- faith, sex, etc. -- walk the path with her from time to time, even if you feel that your beliefs are already set. You won't be able to "change her mind" -- nor should you. But you can help steer her, and help her make wiser and safer choices (maybe she wants to be a Christian -- fine, but at least you can be there to keep her from moving to El Dorado and becoming some old dude's 9th wife, etc.).

Oh, and to hell with your wife. The most a parent can do is limit a kid's behavior -- you can't limit their thoughts. If she wants to do so, then perhaps she should leave the western world altogether, and return to a hemisphere where such assholery is the norm.
 
She does not like her daughter's apparent agreement with the position she has been assigned. How does the ex wife feel about the deth penalty for political dissent for example?

Debate is about learning to argue, and to argue effectively oftentimes for positions that the debater does not personally hold. THAT is where the thinking and analytical skills kick in.

Only being able to see and understand one side of an argument makes a person end up not being able to view much past their own nose.

Confuscious say: He who can't argue either side in a debate.... is a consistant loser....
 
coming from a former high school debater, i understand the assignment and the relevance it has in today's culture/political climate. this is clearly lincoln-douglas debate which focuses on morality.

however, what if the subject was the holocaust? what if the teacher asked her to be pro-holocaust in her speech? while you might think that is horrible comparison, for the militant pro-life faction.... it might not be that much of a stretch.

she needs focus on cross ex debate. there is a reason they call LD (lincoln-douglas) "loser debating". that is because no body wins.
 
More background...my daughter watched the mormon history on pbs 3 months ago and was fascinated.

She has read several children's bibles when young. Recently she read a collection of catholic books that edits the king james version to a more readable version. I had the book of mormon given to me by a close friend from high school and told her she could read it, but that she also had to read selections from Ken Davis' "Don't Know Much About the Bible". She read parts of the Davis book and found that more interesting than the Mormon bible.

I was raised catholic, but never confirmed...parents divorced when I was 12 and we stopped going...which dovetailed with my burgeoning doubts about a christian god. I went back during college and at various other times, but found the experience of listening to sermons that I did not agree with to be unsatisfactory.

For the kids, I use the socratic method with them in our night time reading and tv and movie viewing.

Both kids have read children's bibles as well as other creation stories (Kipling, chinese stories), but for them and me the law of nature prevails as stated in the Lion King.

On Sundays, a routine has been established in which we will go for an 1-2 hour bike ride to a breakfast place and then a book store.

I view my agnosticism not as fence-sitting, but as a locked gate in my spiritual journey. Being agnostic is a logical reaction to the absence of divine emprical evidence, therefore I will continue to actively search for meaning and open gates. The basis for my agnosticism may be atheism, but as stated before I am on a journey. Fence-sitting to me draws an image that I am playing chicken with God. And that at some time, I would choose to believe in a cosmic muffin or some other spiritual deity. That is a passive and uninspiring way to live and one I would not teach my kids.

And Scottsins, a divorce mod has been filed...we are in the stage of working out agreement, before moving on to mediation.
 
The mom sounds really, really close-minded here. Good post by Brisketexan on teaching kids how to observe, learn, and process the truth, and good point by LHG on the right to think vs the ability to think - If your daughter believes X, her mom is crazy to think that by preventing her from speaking X, she'll stop thinking it's true.

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