1,000 miles between fill ups
- Thread starter mcbrett
- Start date
There are tons of people in America who view their vehicles as a status symbol, either of success, or for the "cool" factor. They want to impress their friends, co-workers, or guys trying to impress women. They're willing to spend a ton of money to get that status symbol.
I've got friends making 40-45k a year, buying $30k+ cars ... riduclous. Different priorities though, I guess.
I love to see more vehicles that get much better MPG. I'm enjoying technology advancing, but i question how much the average middle class family would be willing to spend on these green cars when they may not have the status quo of a mercedes or bmw, or muscle car status, a convertible or whatever floats people's boats. People seem to be willing to go well into debt for cars for the cool factor ... will they go into debt for these?
I'm hoping in 5-10 years, cost does come down from the early adoption era, much like Yo's description of the microwave.
I, personally, don't intend to ever take out a car loan ever again until I own a home that's fully paid off ... unless gas becomes $10-12 a gallon and we're forced to buy a Prius or whatever. Wife and I each bought our first new cars 3-4 years ago just before we got married. she's driving a Mazda 3 and I've got a Civic Si ... both get 30-35MPG. (sticks get much better MPG). I'm hoping we can ride these cars into 200k miles ... unless we're forced into something else. I'd rather pay cash and buy used and work towards a paid off home instead.
Debt sucks.
I've got friends making 40-45k a year, buying $30k+ cars ... riduclous. Different priorities though, I guess.
I love to see more vehicles that get much better MPG. I'm enjoying technology advancing, but i question how much the average middle class family would be willing to spend on these green cars when they may not have the status quo of a mercedes or bmw, or muscle car status, a convertible or whatever floats people's boats. People seem to be willing to go well into debt for cars for the cool factor ... will they go into debt for these?
I'm hoping in 5-10 years, cost does come down from the early adoption era, much like Yo's description of the microwave.
I, personally, don't intend to ever take out a car loan ever again until I own a home that's fully paid off ... unless gas becomes $10-12 a gallon and we're forced to buy a Prius or whatever. Wife and I each bought our first new cars 3-4 years ago just before we got married. she's driving a Mazda 3 and I've got a Civic Si ... both get 30-35MPG. (sticks get much better MPG). I'm hoping we can ride these cars into 200k miles ... unless we're forced into something else. I'd rather pay cash and buy used and work towards a paid off home instead.
Debt sucks.
THEU
2,500+ Posts
GTT,
I think the Volt looks fine. It isn't the coolest car out there, but has a strong family resemblance to other Chevy Cars. They just aren't my cup of tea. Anyone who calls them 'dorky' is just a hater. I actually think the Leaf, while very limited in usage, is actually pretty cool looking.
You can say you all you want about saving $1,500 a month in petrol costs, but how much is your monthly car expense? I would guess that it would be far cheaper for me to keep my paid for Mazda 3 Wagon and PAY for $5 gas as opposed to trading it in for a Volt.
I have never paid more than $20k for a car, and I really don't know that I plan to for a LONG time.
I think the Volt looks fine. It isn't the coolest car out there, but has a strong family resemblance to other Chevy Cars. They just aren't my cup of tea. Anyone who calls them 'dorky' is just a hater. I actually think the Leaf, while very limited in usage, is actually pretty cool looking.
You can say you all you want about saving $1,500 a month in petrol costs, but how much is your monthly car expense? I would guess that it would be far cheaper for me to keep my paid for Mazda 3 Wagon and PAY for $5 gas as opposed to trading it in for a Volt.
I have never paid more than $20k for a car, and I really don't know that I plan to for a LONG time.
Gone To Texas
500+ Posts
O
Oilfield
Guest
THEU
2,500+ Posts
Oilfield,
While I was NOT a fan, and indeed was opposed to the car company bail outs by the US government to try to say the Volt is a product of the bail out is to be misinformed. GM was able to produce the Volt because of the bailout, but that had to do with cash infusion of the company continuing to exist, NOT due to the government having any real hand in development. Do you realise the development time table for cars? No one on here is going to say that THEU LOVES Obama. I clearly don't. No one on here is going to say I am all for big government or bail outs to private businesses. Clearly I am not.
There is no reason to tell falsehoods about the Volt either.
While I was NOT a fan, and indeed was opposed to the car company bail outs by the US government to try to say the Volt is a product of the bail out is to be misinformed. GM was able to produce the Volt because of the bailout, but that had to do with cash infusion of the company continuing to exist, NOT due to the government having any real hand in development. Do you realise the development time table for cars? No one on here is going to say that THEU LOVES Obama. I clearly don't. No one on here is going to say I am all for big government or bail outs to private businesses. Clearly I am not.
There is no reason to tell falsehoods about the Volt either.
Gone To Texas
500+ Posts
Thanks for the link, THEU. Interesting video--I hadn't heard of the Clarity before. Seems like it is quite a few years from being affordable. According to Wikipedia it currently costs almost $200k to make...
I especially liked Jay Leno's appearance in the clip and watching him from an obviously British script. What American says "petrol" or "car park"?!
I especially liked Jay Leno's appearance in the clip and watching him from an obviously British script. What American says "petrol" or "car park"?!
BrothaHorn
1,000+ Posts
hornpharmd
5,000+ Posts
accuratehorn
10,000+ Posts
There's many issues being tossed about on this thread, but the development of these electric cars overall is a good thing.
a) It is much easier to control pollution and emissions from one power plant than from millions of poorly maintained vehicles sitting in people's driveways. Even coal plants can have emission control devices, or can be built somewhat cleaner burning from the onset. Coal is terrible from mining, to transporting to burning, but it can be gradually replaced with renewable power plants over time.
b) Most people drive limited distances for the vast majority of their trips, and electric commuter cars would serve their purposes just fine.
c) The home recharging station could automatically recharge the car overnight, choosing the lowest cost electricity during late hours. Smart meters can be programmed to do this very easily and painlessly, and most homes are getting this type of meter already. We have one.
d) If there aren't a critical number of the electric cars out there, the demand for improved batteries and for inexpensive replacement batteries at the end of their useful life won't cause the free market to develop solutions.
e) Same with cost of the first couple of cars, once these are popular, the costs will come down, the designs will be more interesting, and more bubbas will consider owning one. OK, scratch that last thought. There can still be Suburbans and Expeditions for them.
f) Anyone who doesn't think our current dependence on foreign oil is strangling our economy, environment, and human resources (wars) is not looking clearly at the big picture. We need to support a big change in our daily transportation energy use.
g) I would love to have a Volt or a Leaf. I could cruise on over to Starbucks in style for a double latte and a scone on my way to the Sierra Club meeting.
a) It is much easier to control pollution and emissions from one power plant than from millions of poorly maintained vehicles sitting in people's driveways. Even coal plants can have emission control devices, or can be built somewhat cleaner burning from the onset. Coal is terrible from mining, to transporting to burning, but it can be gradually replaced with renewable power plants over time.
b) Most people drive limited distances for the vast majority of their trips, and electric commuter cars would serve their purposes just fine.
c) The home recharging station could automatically recharge the car overnight, choosing the lowest cost electricity during late hours. Smart meters can be programmed to do this very easily and painlessly, and most homes are getting this type of meter already. We have one.
d) If there aren't a critical number of the electric cars out there, the demand for improved batteries and for inexpensive replacement batteries at the end of their useful life won't cause the free market to develop solutions.
e) Same with cost of the first couple of cars, once these are popular, the costs will come down, the designs will be more interesting, and more bubbas will consider owning one. OK, scratch that last thought. There can still be Suburbans and Expeditions for them.
f) Anyone who doesn't think our current dependence on foreign oil is strangling our economy, environment, and human resources (wars) is not looking clearly at the big picture. We need to support a big change in our daily transportation energy use.
g) I would love to have a Volt or a Leaf. I could cruise on over to Starbucks in style for a double latte and a scone on my way to the Sierra Club meeting.
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
THEU
2,500+ Posts
Smart cars are not particularly fuel efficient for what they do. Actually, if you have a family of 4 an efficient 4 door burns less petrol per person.
If you want a petrol only car that gets great milage, can actually carry 4 people and a good amount of stuff, that would be the Honda Fit, or how about a VW Jetta wagon TDI?
If you want a petrol only car that gets great milage, can actually carry 4 people and a good amount of stuff, that would be the Honda Fit, or how about a VW Jetta wagon TDI?
THEU
2,500+ Posts
GTT,
I looked up the clarity on wiki and it said between 120k and 140k to build. Of course that is a small number of basically hand built cars, so who knows how fast that number would go down with mass production.
What I did find interesting is that the article said the hydrogen used to fuel the cars was sourced from Natural Gas. I thought there were even cleaner more sustainable ways to get Liquid Hydrogen made.
I looked up the clarity on wiki and it said between 120k and 140k to build. Of course that is a small number of basically hand built cars, so who knows how fast that number would go down with mass production.
What I did find interesting is that the article said the hydrogen used to fuel the cars was sourced from Natural Gas. I thought there were even cleaner more sustainable ways to get Liquid Hydrogen made.
an suv type with more room would be great when the cost is right.
what is the cost to charge overnight?
is there a chance 30 years down the road that we are saying, "1000 miles between charges"...in other words everyone is plugging in, electricity becomes very expense and oil becomes very cheap?
Is hyro completely off the table now that BO has cut the funding? I heard they were very close to some "breakthroughs"
what is the cost to charge overnight?
is there a chance 30 years down the road that we are saying, "1000 miles between charges"...in other words everyone is plugging in, electricity becomes very expense and oil becomes very cheap?
Is hyro completely off the table now that BO has cut the funding? I heard they were very close to some "breakthroughs"
You've got a point but no one in 1965 was sending billions of dollars to ME to heat up their leftover spaghetti and meatballs.
There is a real national NEED to wean ourselves from dependence on foreign energy sources. I don't believe we'll be completely free foreign oil anytime in my life but we can gradually reduce our dependence, which will not only allow us to keep more of money home, but it will also reduce their ability to fund anti-US entities.
There is a real national NEED to wean ourselves from dependence on foreign energy sources. I don't believe we'll be completely free foreign oil anytime in my life but we can gradually reduce our dependence, which will not only allow us to keep more of money home, but it will also reduce their ability to fund anti-US entities.
interesting and exciting if they can continue to develop the tech and make larger vehicles that are affordable (in line with say a Tahoe).
On a political note, if they are going to cut tax breaks for oil and gas they need to do the same for this technology and green energy as well. Make it a flat and fair market place...let the consumers decide what they want and the direction. It would not seem "fair" for GM (with Federal ties) to push electric cars that give buyers tax breaks and are "invested" in by the Feds, but yet hydro and oil/gas are no longer getting tax breaks.
On a political note, if they are going to cut tax breaks for oil and gas they need to do the same for this technology and green energy as well. Make it a flat and fair market place...let the consumers decide what they want and the direction. It would not seem "fair" for GM (with Federal ties) to push electric cars that give buyers tax breaks and are "invested" in by the Feds, but yet hydro and oil/gas are no longer getting tax breaks.
Ag with kids
2,500+ Posts
I don't see EVs really taking off until they're as convenient as ICE vehicles...
People won't dive in en masse until they know they can charge it any time they want and that the charge time will be quick, like filling up a tank with gas.
Cost is one thing, but convenience is another...why do people run into the gas station to spend $1.50 for a bottle of soda, when they could just get a six pack at Walmart for $3.00? Convenience...
People won't dive in en masse until they know they can charge it any time they want and that the charge time will be quick, like filling up a tank with gas.
Cost is one thing, but convenience is another...why do people run into the gas station to spend $1.50 for a bottle of soda, when they could just get a six pack at Walmart for $3.00? Convenience...
THEU
2,500+ Posts
mcbrett,
don't forget that one reason China is so bullish on electric, is because they have the natural resources that current battery technology demands. China is thus developing their own natural resources. Too bad, it seems that our federal government isn't really too keen on developing all forms of our domestic energy production. I am an ALL forms kinda guy around here. Billions of barrels of oil could be developed NOW in the US, to go along with NG, AND nuclear, AND coal, AND wind, AND solar, AND hydrogen...
I believe pushing ALL of it helps us both long term and short term, AND is better for the environment AND the economy.
don't forget that one reason China is so bullish on electric, is because they have the natural resources that current battery technology demands. China is thus developing their own natural resources. Too bad, it seems that our federal government isn't really too keen on developing all forms of our domestic energy production. I am an ALL forms kinda guy around here. Billions of barrels of oil could be developed NOW in the US, to go along with NG, AND nuclear, AND coal, AND wind, AND solar, AND hydrogen...
I believe pushing ALL of it helps us both long term and short term, AND is better for the environment AND the economy.
I think the convenience factor is here- today, as the Volt demonstrates- and a few other models. The Volt is a bridge technology we should be promoting so that we could have the same thing- but better, faster, cheaper and in any type of car (SUVs etc.) I love it- hope it sells well- because we all know the costs will come down.
THEU, TexasGolf- 9 times out of 10- I'd agree and say let the marketplace decide- remove subsidies for everything. However in this case- oil vs. electrics- one of the two costs us trillions of dollars in negative externalites whereas the other promotes new jobs and removes the same externalities. It's difficult for many people to connect the dots- but, if you could de-fund your enemies, remove the need for multiple conflicts, give yourself energy independence, reduce pollution, reduce health related costs and potentially foster an industry to create many new jobs- wouldn't that perhaps be worth a combination of a carrot and a stick to help promote ASAP? I believe so.
THEU, TexasGolf- 9 times out of 10- I'd agree and say let the marketplace decide- remove subsidies for everything. However in this case- oil vs. electrics- one of the two costs us trillions of dollars in negative externalites whereas the other promotes new jobs and removes the same externalities. It's difficult for many people to connect the dots- but, if you could de-fund your enemies, remove the need for multiple conflicts, give yourself energy independence, reduce pollution, reduce health related costs and potentially foster an industry to create many new jobs- wouldn't that perhaps be worth a combination of a carrot and a stick to help promote ASAP? I believe so.
Yes it does.
But what would you rather have: (And no- they are not mutually exclusive- this is just for comparison's sake- we could have both technically)
1) Jobs that are located in the Gulf, that pay a few good engineers, and 40 or so manual labor folks for a 10-15 year run per well. The goods are consumed here in the US and do nothing to advance the US technically or to address any of the above externalities I mentioned. Profits go to either a domestic or British firm.
2) Dozens of manufacturing plants across the US, which support another supply industry, plus hundreds of finance and business professionals. The goods may be exported anywhere globally. The 7 or so externalities are addressed and our country benefits.
But what would you rather have: (And no- they are not mutually exclusive- this is just for comparison's sake- we could have both technically)
1) Jobs that are located in the Gulf, that pay a few good engineers, and 40 or so manual labor folks for a 10-15 year run per well. The goods are consumed here in the US and do nothing to advance the US technically or to address any of the above externalities I mentioned. Profits go to either a domestic or British firm.
2) Dozens of manufacturing plants across the US, which support another supply industry, plus hundreds of finance and business professionals. The goods may be exported anywhere globally. The 7 or so externalities are addressed and our country benefits.
FridayNiteLites
500+ Posts
Good point THEU. Okay, so plugging in at night has been thrown out there. Not many people are going to come home from work, and then later on "at night" go out and plug in the car. What happens when thousands/millions of cars are all being plugged in at night? Won't you have just as much electricity then working during the night as you do in the day? I'm with the total cuts on subsidies if you are going to say no more to oil. Get rid of wind, solar, ethanol and others that get them also. Let the market decide. Ethanol production is causing a large part of the pain that we are experiencing at the grocery store. Corn used to be about $2.00 for a 50# bag. Now you can't get it for less than around $7. Corn is used in a lot of products. The efforts to use it as a fuel has not worked out too well.
Ag with kids
2,500+ Posts
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