Trump showing good sense
- Thread starter Musburger1
- Start date
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
Am I the only one that never clicks on a “Russia Today” link?
Putin administers Russia in the manner of a mob boss. No big deals get done without his OKing it. Nobody gets whacked without him OKing it. To him and his crew, Mother Russia is a ***** that they get to pimp out.
His main innovation (over the USSR dictators) is that he allows the oligarchs to keep their loot abroad.
Putin administers Russia in the manner of a mob boss. No big deals get done without his OKing it. Nobody gets whacked without him OKing it. To him and his crew, Mother Russia is a ***** that they get to pimp out.
His main innovation (over the USSR dictators) is that he allows the oligarchs to keep their loot abroad.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
Can you simply stick to the topic? Or is the dangers of pursuing a mad nuclear arms race over your head?
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
In 2016 the Washington Post printed a list of sights provided by an unknown entity known as prop-or-not (or something like that) in order to use as a screen for people like yourself so not to be misled by Russian Propaganda. Apparently you only read material deemed appropriate for consumption as approved by your betters.
I wouldn't avoid clicking on a RT link, so long as you know and understand what you're reading. It's the mouthpiece of the Russian regime. That doesn't necessarily mean everything in it is false. It just means that it's going to spin everything in a way that supports the regime's narrative. It's like reading something in the Völkischer Beobachter in the 1930s.
And for what it's worth, RT is the most reputable source he cites to.
Last edited:
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
And that includes the NYTimes and Washington Post.
If you've cited to either one of those, I haven't seen it.
If he did what they supposedly want and called Putin out on the "election", that would wad up their panties as well. he would be putting us on the brink of WWIII!!
I wonder if the WH Press Corps grilled the Obama Admin when he said Russia was no longer a threat or when Hillary presented the Reset button to their Foreign Minister. Something tells me probably not.
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
Evil dictators. For most of the Cold War, excepting the Carter years, our policy was to tolerate relations with dictators as long as they weren’t a Communist client and they didn’t meddle in their neighbor’s affairs. That was a successful policy and it led to liberalization of many (examples- S. Korea, Indonesia). Nothing to be proud of, but practical.
Putin’s Russia has shot down (probably not on purpose) a civilian airliner and denied it (on purpose). It has committed murder in our allies’ borders and is actively destabilizing the ME. It deserves only contempt, in my opinion.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
Projection is when one party accuses the other party of something the accusing party is actually guilty of. In the process, either no proof and/or false evidence is provided.
Projection provides a means to stigmatize an enemy, falsely accused exonerate yourself, and shape public perception.
Your post is a good illustration of projection.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
Trump called Putin for the purpose of making an agenda for arms talks possible. Congratulating Putin was just the proper protocol. Had Russia not recently shown they have deployed or are currently producing advanced weaponry the call would not have been made.
The fact that elements of the government and press are criticizing Trump shows two things. There is a sharp Division in policy. These people have no concept of how close the world is edging toward mutual destruction on the present path of escalation. Trump has been advised correctly by someone.
I35
5,000+ Posts
Yes he did. FACT!!!
Barrack Hussein Obama also congratulated other questionable characters that are considered dictators and also made nice to the Muslim Brotherhood. But let's just ignore that.
For the most part, the Carter Administration tolerated relations with dictators who sympathetic to US interests. There was a little more grandstanding, but we didn't significantly change our foreign policy under Carter.
I wouldn't approach Putin solely with contempt. I'd approach him as we approached Stalin. Where we can find common ground, I'd work with him. However, as with Stalin, I'd pretty much assume that he's out to expand his influence and wouldn't hesitate to do so at the expense of the West. That means being firmly loyal to our allies in Europe and the Middle East and maintaining our military presence and preparedness where needed to contain Putin and his allies if necessary.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
In the case of Stalin's USSR, it was two different ideologies; capitalism vs communism.
With Putin's Russia, its two competing capitalistic economies vying for influence. Putin is looking to expand influence, but not in the sense of a conquering army. Russia is looking to leverage their plethora of natural resources to expand its economy via trade and infrastructure projects. The United States would like to see either a regime change in Russia resulting in a vassel state or a splintering of Russia into lesser states.
Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, pre-invasion Libya are countries wanting to abandon the dollar system. The US sees this as a threat because the US financial and economic engine are tied to dollar supremacy. The current system has allowed the US to run enormous deficits and offshore industry without greatly debasing its currency. Also, the US is able to pressure countries which "get out of line" by using the combination of financial instruments like the IMF, SWIFT, and the World Bank as well as the US military.
The US will eventually have to either allow these countries their sovereignty and pull back (i.e. become a normal country rather than a global hegemon), or defeat these countries. By defeating these countries, I'm talking about triggering:
1. A financial collapse resulting in regime change submissive to the US.
2. A revolution resulting in regime change submissive to the US.
3 A war resulting in a regime change submissive to the US.
In Venezuela we are seeing a financial collapse occur, but the result is unlikely to be anything other than a quagmire which ends in a regional war bogging down the US. The US is as likely, if not more likely, to financially collapse than is Russia or China at this point.
As far as a revolution, Iran was the best chance, but the aggressive actions of the US and mideast allies in the region have only strengthened the resolve of Iranians to stick together. Ditto for Russia as Putin is more popular than ever and regular citizens are becoming anti-west.
A war is an option that could end life on earth if taken to extremes.
It is a myth that the US vs Russia altercations have anything to do with human rights, oppression, or Russian aggression/meddling. The truth is each country has a capitalist economy that requires growth. The US cannot obtain the necessary growth if Russia/China create their own regional monetary systems and networked trade partners. Russia and China cannot reach their potential under what they perceive as a failing dollar system used as a weapon against them.
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
The best description of Russia isn’t capitalist. It’s “fascist”. Centrally directed economy, nationalism, authoritarianism... that’s a fascist state.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
Its a mix.
But sectors of the US currently economy as it stands now is dominated by cartels and monopolies that maintain and increase their dominance via influence over the government. The pharmaceutical and financial industries are prime examples. Competition is limited and legislation is all but written by lobbyists.
But that's all beside the point. Classify the respective economies however you wish. The fact remains there exists a competition to influence other nations to deal with the respective competitors in order to achieve growth necessary to sustain the economy. And propaganda is the tool wielded to vilify the opponent and garner support of the population. Soviet Pravda doesn't hold a candle to the current government/corporate control and infiltration of the "free press" in America.
NJlonghorn
2,500+ Posts
Here's a shockingly fair CNN article on the topic. It was written by Scott Jennings, who was a somewhat-senior official in the Bush 43 administration. When did CNN start giving column inches to conservative authors?
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
That a further detail about that call was leaked to the press is an outrage that must be addressed: Officials familiar with the President's call to congratulate Putin told reporters that in doing so Trump ignored briefing materials that read, in all caps, "DO NOT CONGRATULATE."
Who the hell is in charge? Trump or his "briefers?"
The article was another example where half the article was anti-Russia propaganda.
Also, the drift of the article is that if you aren't anti-Russia, then you aren't conservative. (Similarly, because Russia is very conservative, if you aren't anti-liberal then you aren't progressive). So we've established an environment where both "conservatives" and "liberals" must be anti-Russia. Conservatives must be anti-Russia because they are the enemy by definition. Liberals must be anti-Russia because Russia isn't liberal. And if you don't fall into either category of conservative or liberal, you must be anti-Russia because Putin is an evil dictator that orders people killed and secretly is the richest man in the world...and he meddles in our elections.
People are so easily manipulated.
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
And yet none are so blind as those who will not see.
You make all these arguments of equivalence between Russia and the US, and nobody is swayed. Maybe we’re not manipulated (kind of an insulting statement, btw). Maybe your arguments just aren’t very good.
You make all these arguments of equivalence between Russia and the US, and nobody is swayed. Maybe we’re not manipulated (kind of an insulting statement, btw). Maybe your arguments just aren’t very good.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
At least I make arguments based on facts and logic. But facts and logic seldom hold sway over emotion. You win.
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
Facts like:
Putin is an authoritarian dictator that keeps killing his opposition. He has ruled since 2000 and will step down only when he chooses.
Putin has only ever had government jobs. He has a net worth of tens of billions.
Putin has ordered hits in foreign countries.
Russian SAM shot down MH17, killing nearly 300 innocent people. Russia denies responsibility and has floated a half dozen half baked and easily debunked alternate theories.
Russia’s allies are Assad, Iran, (Raul) Castro and Maduro. Nice company.
Putin is an authoritarian dictator that keeps killing his opposition. He has ruled since 2000 and will step down only when he chooses.
Putin has only ever had government jobs. He has a net worth of tens of billions.
Putin has ordered hits in foreign countries.
Russian SAM shot down MH17, killing nearly 300 innocent people. Russia denies responsibility and has floated a half dozen half baked and easily debunked alternate theories.
Russia’s allies are Assad, Iran, (Raul) Castro and Maduro. Nice company.
Taylor, it's sometimes interesting to engage with Musburger. He's a sharp guy who sometimes makes some valid points. However, the core problem with arguing him is that he believes in a US-driven, international conspiracy to rig the entire mainstream media not just in the United States but all over the Western world. And of course, you can't disprove him since it's very hard to prove a negative, so he'll basically stand by that assertion and summarily reject any argument or evidence you cite as products of that conspiracy. On the other side, he unquestioningly accepts as valid anything that comes from Russian media outlets and other outlets. That makes any discussion with him bound for impasse.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
Everything above is unsubstantiated except for the partial list of allies.
Most of your hysterical allegations, the shooting down of MH17, the poisoning’s on British soil, Assisting Assad with chemical attacks, targeting schools and hospitals, “invading” Crimea, Putin’s personnel assets in the billions, etc. have never been proven. Such acts if ordered by Putin gain nothing for he or Russia and would only weaken their prospects for achieving goals.
Let me give an example for you and Deez how the western press works. Check out the various headlines and articles from the recent suicide of a Ukrainian pilot. Type in the following in Google Search.
ukrainian pilot suicide
Read the RT article. You’ll see the actual accusation against the pilot was made by a fellow Ukrainian (who later fled to Russia), not by Russia. But all the western headlines make
a point to omit this and distort the facts.
And Deez, if it’s conspiratarial to assert the western press is largely under the thumb of intelligence and corporate influence, why is it then not conspiratorial to assert that Russian propaganda is turning elections and causing disruption? Really.
TaylorTRoom
1,000+ Posts
No, Mus, they have been proven. The Dutch investigation of the airliner crash attributed it to a Russian SAM. That’s final and official and nobody is investigating anything else. Sure, Russia denies it, but they declined to cooperate and are not performing their own investigation.
Same with the polonium poisoning in London of several years ago. The UK has indicted two Russian agents.
Same with the polonium poisoning in London of several years ago. The UK has indicted two Russian agents.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
Here’s one refutation of the initial poisoning case.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016...ssia-killed-litvinenko-…-then-i-looked-myself
The Dutch investigation made no absolute determination. Ukraine possessed the very same SAM. As always, you have nothing but conclusions made off of unsubstantiated conjecture.
It's not conspiratorial to assert that the Western press has people in it who shill for an intelligence community and for corporate interests, but that's a gross understatement of your position and overly simplistic to the point of preposterousness.
And personally, I've never suggested that Russian propaganda turns elections, and those who think they do are conspiratorial. Do they intervene? Sure. Actually shift outcomes? Probably not. And definitely not in the United States.
Musburger1
2,500+ Posts
its not a gross overstatement. If anything, it’s an understatement.
Weekly Prediction Contest
* Predict HORNS-AGGIES *
Sat, Nov 30 • 6:30 PM on ABC
Recent Threads
-
The Media Industry
- Started by texas_ex2000
- Replies: 8K
- West Mall
-
President Biden Accountability Thread
- Started by 2003TexasGrad
- Replies: 4K
- West Mall
Prediction Results Threads
