Teaching English

TahoeHorn

1,000+ Posts
How should we teach English?

As you might guess I have very different ideas about how we should teach English. Specifically, I think we should focus more on communicating effectively. Even more specifically, we should train on identification of the central point and how to say it quickly. Our current system tries to get people to analyze irony in the Odyssey or such. I'd teach people how to write a memo.

Let me give you a few examples which precipitates this rant:

1. You stand in line in the Product Return area at Costco. There is a sign which tells you how to return an item. Not surprisingly it says "You must have a receipt." They imply any item purchased recently can be returned. I say "I want to return this. Here's my recipt." The people infront of me rant about when they bought it, why they bought it, how it doesn't work, and how it's caused them problems. It takes fifteen minutes. I don't know what they want, and it's the return area so maybe they want to return the item. That's not clear.

2. Your car breaks down on the road. You call a friend who is an expert and ask what you should do. Twenty minutes later, you know more about internal combustion engines but you aren't sure what he actually recommends. You say, "You seem to be saying that I can wait fifteen minutes (which this conversation has already taken), and limp to a repair place, but there are no guarantees I won't blow an engine." You hear another five minutes about what could happen but finally force a concession that the risk should be taken. I could have given the advice in twenty seconds, but admittedly would not have provided an education in internal combustion engines to a pissed off, hot motorist.

3. You are asked if you want to go to the ballet. You say "no". Later you find out you are an uncaring insensitive bastard because you refused to go to the ballet when it was Susie's big wish to go see the big production but was scared to go there at night without you. You wish she'd said, "Would you be willing to go to the ballet. It's extremely important, but I'm too scared to go there by myself at night." You'd have gone. Similarly you are asked whether you'd like to see the movie with Schwarzenegger or the one with Streisand. You vote Schwarzenegger, but after the ballet episode you point out that you would be willing to go see Streisand if it's important. You're deemed an *** for alluding to the ballet incident.

4. You are asked if you'd do a favor. The ease of the favor is elaborately characterized with a two minute speech. After agreeing you are led to the kitchen, a cabinet is opened and a letter scale is pointed to on the top shelf. After about five sentences of talking about the need to weigh letters, new postal rates. and God knows what else (you've zoned out), you ask "Do you want the scale?'. After hearing a yes, you grab the scale in three seconds because you can reach the top shelf.

5. You go to Wendy's. How long does it ******* take to order a number two combo with a Coke to go? It takes you five seconds. It takes the guy in front of you fifty.

You may not think this has to do with teaching English. I do. I was raised in a house with the "Tahoe disease". My dad has it bad and he taught me. He starts every discussion with about ten sentences of disclaimers and info you alredy know.

In business I was murdered for it early in my career. I had to give my analyisis to the boss who'd talk to the client. Like my peers I wasn't trusted to talk. I had to prepare exective briefings which we wrestled over for days. Massive discussion was centered on how to present a concept quickly. I saw the benefits of good communicatioon and the problems of poor communication. And I learned that CEOs are impatient as hell and not very inquisitive. Often you can commandeer fifteen seconds of "face time". Maybe it's outside his office while he's walking to the rest room. You have to say exactly what you mean, and very quickly. "I disagree with the current plans to purchase the new systemn. My plan is to ... Can we meet for five minutes soon to go over it?" Three quick declarative sentences. Now you know he needs more to buy your recommendation, but the objective is to get his attention for a meeting and not to issue a PO.

I believe that teaching English should have a heavy emphasis on communicating things in every day life. Written and oral are both required. Write. Write. Write. But not an analysis of a poem. Create instructions to a six year old on how to play baseball. I can think of several assignments for every day.

When I worked at Exxon a girl in my carpool was a top Princeton grad hired for the speechwriting department. She said she was one of the best writers at Princeton but felt incompetent in her new job. She spent a day on a short press release. Her boss rewrote it in five minutes, and his rewrite was incredibly superior. He spent a half an hour explaing the differences.

What are your ideas? What do you think of my emphasis on straightforward communication?

P.S. I had a poor English education and it was thirty five years ago. I took a college composition course in the Summer for transfer and a literature course at UT. Maybe the system is smarter now. But I doubt it.
 
People are too damn wordy, should we or should we not teach how to be concise?

Is that what you were trying to say?
 
I like to show up late and then shoot the **** while my student is making coffee. Then sometimes we cover Phrasal Verbs or Prepositions, because this is where they have the most trouble. Other times we look at an article that I brought in and discuss it. Then... there are the days I just wing it.

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Tahoe,
I was just messing with you, I know what you mean. My fiance is exactly like you say. She bounces around with tons of extra words that have no point to her final point, and then you can't even figure out what her point is until the end.

2 things guide my communication: Thesis statement, then back it up. and second: Brevity is the soul of wit.
 
In previous posts, some have talked about the fact that, from an educator's perspective, part of the problem is time. Or lack thereof. It takes a long time to grade a piece of crap, if your aim is to point out all the reasons why the person's writing is deficient. And will the person pay any attention to your extensive corrections?

I knew a tennis lesson guy who made what I thought was a pretty good point. You can take lesson after lesson after lesson, spending thousands of dollars in the process. Or you can sit down and actually pay attention to what a professional does and how he does it. Watch a tennis match. On television. Rewind and slow-mo. Watch the feet, the knees, the hips, the take-back, the step forward, the follow-through, the finish.

Okay, so maybe writing is harder than tennis. Still, two things are true. It's easy to gain access to the work of experts. Also, practice makes perfect.
 
I'm not sure how one would go about analyzing the Odyssey. Not sure I've ever seen that attempted. The nature of that poem is to describe everything completely, so that nothing is left half in shadow -- in need of analysis.

Our society's inability to write concisely has nothing to do with teachers spending too much time on poetry analysis. It has a lot to do with teachers fighting like mad just to reach basic levels of coherence at the sentence level. This is because kids today are emerging from early childhood with really screwed up internal language structures impressed upon their brains by various non-standard sources.
 
Re: English education

The kids need to read and write. What they read and write about is their business. Your business as a teacher is to teach mechanics, strategies, elements, and skills.

In reply to:


 
I teach a section of an undergraduate writing intensive class at Minnesota. Most of the kids are pretty smart, but only a few of them seem to have any idea how to make a point in a concise way. They have a paper due every two weeks that has a strict 500 word limit - most of them will spend 400 words saying nothing. By the time they get to an interesting point, their paper is practically over.

I don't have a clue how to teach them not to do that. I brought a few issues of The Economist to class last week and read them some really good concise passages to highlight what I'm talking about but I doubt I'll get through to many of them.

Maybe it's a symptom of a culture that values pretty much everything over substance?
 
Agree with all points so far.

One way in which I wish English had been taught was to think about separating the ideas in a paper from the delivery. Most students start by fluffing up the delivery because they have no ideas to convey. By the time they get a decent idea, they've forgotten how to convey anything concisely.

The way I would teach this is to emphasize that the goal of writing (or speaking) is to deliver ideas to an audience. The words themselves are merely a vehicle. A poor delivery can cloud up a good idea, just as pretty words do little good if there's no message.
 
I believe you are addressing two completely different areas.
One is the mechanics of writing and expressing ideas in a concise and coherent manner. Sentence structure, grammar, spelling, punctuation, paragraph and theme organization. This should be part of English teaching, certainly.
The other part is the value of liberal arts education-thinking for yourself, interpreting literature and other works from a framework of rational thought based on some framework of societal, philosophical, religous or other personal values.
Trying to interpret Moby Dick, the Odyssey, or a Plato dialogue-this is where independent thought is nurtured.
Keep fighting the good fight, English teachers, because the results you can introduce to your students are life long thinking processes.
I don't think Tahoe's points are addressed by English classes, at least some of them. Communications classes like speech and journalism teach some of those things.
Everyone should be required to take one speech class in high school.
Every high school should offer a college level English composition class which teaches how to write an organized paper, like my high school did. This served me well all through college.
 
Listening to Keilor on NPR last night driving to SFO. At a point he took questions from the audience, and someone asked how "we" could "convince"... the question was about the presidential campaign.

GK explained that you can participate in the election any way you want, his preference being the minimum, but as for the goal of convincing anyone of anything, this should be abandoned. He said teachers have understood this for years.
 

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