T.U.L.I.P. - yes or no (a survey, not discussion)

Pelagius, Luther and Calvin say pretty much the same thing, they just use different words. Their message is that salvation is a one-sided affair, regardless of which side is pulling the weight.

I think that's a simplistic approach, because if either side can bridge the gap between God and Man alone, Christ doesn't need to be a Savior. He's either a special-ed teacher for the idiot humans who can't even follow one rule or a jerk who came down inform us that an unknown percentage of us are screwed for all time and left. You have to really want it to make either scenario jibe with Scripture.
 
Yes to both. I'm Presbyterian, and I was raised Primitive Baptist, which is even more Calvinist and about as far from Southern and Fundamentalist as you can get.

I also had a dog named Tulip, but she wasn't Calvinist.
 
No. Like any man-made construct there are going to be mistakes. I do find strong biblical evidence for everything but the "L".
 
Me: No
My church: Yes

I was raised in a church that would be in the Arminian family (although I've never gone to church with anyone who even knew what that was) and now I go to a very strong Calvinist church. I know both arguments very well. What I always found so amusing is that the Arminian's had all their verses to support their arguments memorized and could not see how the Calvinist could not see the "plain truth of Scripture" and now at a Calvinist church they all have their verses memorized and can't see why the Arminians can't see the "plain truth of Scripture". And they all have the exact same response, "They are taking that passage out of context".

But if you believe that the Bible is inerrant and can not contradict itself in any way, then you must harmonize certain passages.
 
most of the folks on this thread probably know what it stands for, but just so everyone is clear.

total depravity (we are born teh suck)
unconditional election (God's choice, not ours)
limited atonement (everyone else is hosed)
irresistable grace (we can't decline the call of salvation)
perseverance of the saints (once saved, always saved)

I'd say that I'm 3/5, and our pastor is 4/5.
 
I don't have a church, so obviously, these thoughts only apply to me.

I had to look these up, so I'm copying the 5 points here to save others the time:

Total Depravity: Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin. --------- I don't believe in sin, so there's no way we'll all affected by sin. Nobody's perfect either. I just don't think anything short of perfection is a sin. Maybe it's just semantics. I don't know.

Unconditional Election: God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21). ------ I don't believe God (if there is one) is electing anyone for anything. I don't believe in salvation for anyone. You live. You die. It's over. That's it.

Limited Atonement: Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all). ----------- I don't think Jesus dies for any one's sins. Maybe he thought he was, but he wasn't. I can't read his mind. Jesus dies because he pissed off (or scared, or threatened) some very powerful people. They wanted Jesus dead and Jesus, ofr whatever reason, let them have their way. Perhaps it wasn't much different than a condemned man in Huntsville who walks into the execution room on his own two feet. Surely he doesn't want to die, but he also knows that resistance is futile.

Irresistible Grace: When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s. ---------------- I don't think God is calling anybody. If some one hears a call from God, it's because his brain is misinterpreting some of the signals it is receiving.

Perseverance of the Saints: You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return. ---------- Once again, no one is being saved.

I will add though, that even within the realm of Christianity, I find these ideas pretty strange overall. I guess I can understand Total Depravity.

Unconditional Election sounds quite harsh. Why bother trying to bring new people into the church to be "saved" if God already has it figured out and nothing within the individual can sway him? Maybe I'll point this out to the next person prostelitizing to me.

Limited Atonement??? Come on! Don't be a dick, Jesus. If you're going to save one, save all.

Irresistible Grace? I guess I would want that in my church. Then again, doesn't IG render all the preachers lessons irrelevant? You either have it or you don't. Why bother trying to be good, or believe, or whatever?

Perseverance of the Saints??? Sorta the same argument as IG. If you have it, you're cool. You have a license to rape and pillage at will. You're already saved. Sweet. Maybe W believes in this.

Oh yeah, we weren't supposed to discuss these. It's just a poll.

Me: No
My church: NA

Bernard
 
The I and P seem redundant to me. If it's impossible to refuse God's offer of grace, then how could you not be always saved? If someone who had "attained salvation" could decide to change his mind and reject God, then clearly it is possible to refuse grace.

But I guess TULI or TULP don't sound as cool.

In reply to:
Click to expand...
 
No, its strictly a man made belief. It can only be justified by taken scriptures out of context. When you look at the word of God in a holistic approach you will see it debunked. Remember when it was created most people didn't have a bible to read for themselves.
 
The problem I have with the five points is that even if I didn't "align myself" with them, it wouldn't matter in the end, and in either case if they are correct, I may still be in. Or out.
 
No! And I hate tulips.
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If I don't know what the five points are Calvinism are, much less how they are aligned, how do I know if I'm aligned with them?
 
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