So, how long do we have to be an elite program?

Texanne

5,000+ Posts
before we are considered by the sports cognoscenti as a "basketball school"?

Abe Lemons showed us the neighborhood with the NIT championship, then Penders bought us a house on the outskirts. Rick Barnes has brought us into the neighborhood proper, but when will the other basketball schools accept us as one of them?
 
First it's National Championship, then multiple trips in the Elite Eight & Final Four. Coach Barnes has had the basketball program in the right direction since the 2003 Final Four.

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I would say you have to win it all at least once before you can say you're an elite program in any sport. We are one of the top schools for sure right now.
 
This is all about longevity and sustained excellence, without drawbacks like fed-ex envelopes. I will also probably also take at least one championship and one change of coach without measurable drop-off.
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Got to win it all at least a few times, no question about it. KU is still considered the premier hoops school in the league, although Texas has made a strong case for #2 under Barnes. Barnes is doing a great job turning us into an elite program. He needs to keep locking down that in-state talent, while bringing in the occasional outsider who fits into our program well. I think it's mostly about perception, though. We have a lot of suckitude from the Weltlich era left over to overcome, but as memories fade and Barnes makes it a habit to beat KU, win the Big XII, and advance to the Sweet Sixteen or better over a number of years, we'll enter the elite conversation more and more.

Some of the traditional basketball powers will probably never accept us -- it's sort of like the old money vs. new money cliques that rich people run in. Texas will be considered "new money" by those traditional powers, and they will probably always look down at us. Who cares what they think, so long as we keep winning trophies.

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imo, the thing that keeps Texas from being a "basketball school" isn't a lack of success/sustained excellence on the court. being a basketball school/football school is first and foremost determined by the level of interest from its fanbase.

we're an elite basketball program right now...without any national titles. but is UT a basketball school? not from a fanbase perspective. we are neither a particularly rabid, nor especially knowledgeable basketball fanbase overall. the amount of interest in UT basketball pales in comparison to that of UT football. it also is less than at the basketball schools like Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky.

we'll be a basketball school when the fans demand the same of our basketball program (and back up those demands with attendance and donations) as we do our football program.
 
Flordia is not an "elite" basketball school. Yes they won a couple championships, but they were nothing before and are quickly dropping back into the land of the average.

Elite schools are defined over time. When I say time I mean decades. Texas has been good for a few years and have one final four. Today was the first time EVER Texas has been ranked #1.

To be considered among the basketball elite will take many more accomplishments way beyond Rick Barnes' years and the public will all have to look back and say, "He was one hell of a coach!"

Just like great artists, most of the world doesn't acknowledge greatness until it is gone. If we are lucky we'll get someone as good or better to replace him when he retires and continue the tradition of greatness. Then and only then will we join the ranks of basketball elites.
 
I have been saying for years that Texas would equal and surpass KU in basketball. It took a few more years than I thought, but that day has arrived.

I'm not saying UT will win the title, but the last few years Texas has outrecruited and now it appears is outplaying the Jaycrows.
 
Maybe the definition would have to include either national championships or multiple contenders under two or more coaches' reigns.
 
I honestly think that you have to win two or more titles before you are bonafide "elite". Let's do it!

It would also help if we start winning some Big XII tourneys. IIRC, we have not even nailed that down yet.

Being ranked #1 is definitely a step in the right direction.
 
Right now, as a program Texas reminds me of Michigan back 15 years ago. We are a coach away from slipping back into irrelevance.
I think the NCAA Basketball Wins list sums up our place in the pecking order:
13. Illinois
14. Western Kentucky
15. Oregon State
16. Washington
17. Louisville
18. Texas

19. BYU
20. Arizona

If you add up everything - Titles, Final Fours, Tourney Appearances, Conference Titles - most lists have Texas anywhere from #15 - #25 on the all-time ranking. We would have to win BIG over the next 20 years to change that and even then we have a ceiling.

It is sort of like Florida in football. They have had a lot of success over the last 30 years. So much that they are now considered elite. But they still aren't part of the old guard that is Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, Alabama, Michigan, Ohio State, and probably Nebraska. These program have had 100 years of success.

Texas will never get to the level of Kentucky, UNC, or Kansas. We can be dominant, but we won't ever be basketball royalty. Just like Miami will never be football royalty.
 
I don't think championships are required. I would argue that final fours are good enough. It is very hard to win the whole thing in basketball. Repeated final four appearances and tournament success over time are what validates a program. I also think conference tournament titles are a LOT less important than regular season titles.
 
So, because players decided to stay in school it makes one of their championships not count for purposes of determining elite status?

Come on.
 
I'm not saying it doesn't count. I'm saying it's markedly different compared to every other championship team in the last decade or so.

So if I'm judging whether Florida is elite, I'm looking at how they've done outside the championship years.

They've haven't made the NCAA cut the last two years, and that, especially not making it last year, is a ding on Donovan's record. We can infer from this that had the players departed, he wouldn't have made it in 2007, either.

But in the prior five years ('01-05, coming off a NCAA final, so you can't say he wasn't looking good to recruits), he had a two, a three, a four and two fives, and he has three NCAA wins to show for it, with no Sweet 16s.

Barnes, for comparison, coming off the FF in 2003, from '04-08 had two twos, a three, a four and an eight. His teams won nine NCAA games, and had two Elite Eights and a Sweet 16.

Now, I know this is comparing coaches, as opposed to programs, but which performance, over time, looks more elite to you? At least I would say that Florida doesn't look like it would sustain momentum under a new coach compared to Texas.

Hopefully, it will be many years before this becomes an issue.
 
I really cannot believe we are having this discussion.

Florida has two national championships. TWO!!! Donovan recruited the players, coached them, and won those two national championships. I could give a crap about sustainability. I would take a championship and trade the FF, Elite 8, and the 9 NCAA wins anyday.

I am not saying I would sell the soul of the program, so to speak, and turn into a also-ran team. But I will take 2 National Championships and then go to the NIT for a couple years as punishment. No doubt.
 
Oklahoma State is more of an elite program than Texas. They are tradition-rich in basketball. Don't know a whole lot about Cincinnati, but I would put them about equal with Texas as far as status. San Francisco was once a power-house, but alas, they are no longer.

I do not have two different arguments. My argument is that Florida is elite because of the championships. I think championships is what makes you elite. Texas can make all the NCAA tournament appearances it wants, but unless it does something with them, then they mean very little.

I guess we have different definitions of elite. Under your definition, the only schools that would fit are UNC, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, and Syracuse.
 

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