Rudy Guiliani's defense of Trump

[Seattle Husker]

Today Guiliani claimed that Mueller's team is attempting to "frame" Trump. It seems to me that Guiliani gets crazier with each successive public appearance. It's widely thought that it was Guiliani who leaked the January letter from Trump's legal team to Mueller. This is the one that claims that Trump can pardon himself. Over the weekend Guiliani was quoted as saying "Trump could shoot Comey and not be prosecuted."

Recognizing this is unsettled law, does anyone think the framers intended to have the POTUS completely immune from any criminal prosecution?

 

[iatrogenic]

The framers were concerned with idiots investigating, bringing false claims, harassing, and otherwise pursuing political goals using dubious means at the expense of the President. How prescient of them.

 

[Garmel]

The framers were concerned with idiots investigating, bringing false claims, harassing, and otherwise pursuing political goals using dubious means at the expense of the President. How prescient of them.

Unfortunately, we're seeing some of that right now with this investigation.

 

[HANNAHORN]

Nice attempt at deflection there guys. I believe the question was "does anyone think the framers intended to have the POTUS completely immune from any criminal prosecution?" Do you think any President is above the law? Yes or no.

 

[UTChE96]

Recognizing this is unsettled law, does anyone think the framers intended to have the POTUS completely immune from any criminal prosecution?

Certainly not. But it is hard to see how this investigation is anything other than a political witch hunt. The Dems were crying about Russian collusion prior to the inauguration. We are now over a year and a half into Trump's administration and so far no evidence of direct collusion involving Trump has surfaced. It has been a horrible precedent. If you do not like the results of an election, just come up with enough bogus allegations to distract the new President from his agenda. That said, Trump has handled the entire Russian collusion story horribly. He should just shut his mouth and refuse to comment on it - go about your business and progress your agenda. He is clearly incapable of not responding to anything that he perceives as a challenge to his authoritah!

 

[UTChE96]

Do you think any President is above the law? Yes or no.

Bill Clinton apparently was. Only President to ever be found in contempt of court. Did you support removing Clinton from office?

 

[Mr. Deez]

At interesting article on self-pardoning from 1998. Honestly, I'm not sure what the right answer is.

 

[I35]

Do you think any President is above the law? Yes or no.

Good Gawd! Everyone knows without a doubt that it’s a witch hunt. Even you do, but you’d never admit it.

 

[OUBubba]

These people are so guilty. They make Nixon look like a paragon of ethics.

 

[Mr. Deez]

These people are so guilty. They make Nixon look like a paragon of ethics.

What specific acts or omissions support this claim, and what laws or ethical standards have been breached?

 

[OUBubba]

What specific acts or omissions support this claim, and what laws or ethical standards have been breached?

It's like a Shakespearean drama.

Here's one chapter:
There was never any contact by Russians. Sessions, Flynn, DJT, DJT2, etc. all were incredulous that there were even accusations of contacts with Russians. Turns out there's an email and a pretty well documented meeting in Trump Tower with the purpose to get dirt on Hillary. Trump was "out of town". Turns out he was in NYC for a campaign event that night. I would speculate that he was at least in the building on speaker phone listening. "The meeting was nothing and was about adoptions". Turns out it was about the Maginsky Act that is so important to the Oligarchs that they have Bill Browder on the perpetual Interpol watch list so he can't travel effectively in Europe as more and more countries pass similar laws locking down this illegal Russian money. Hope Hicks pledged that these emails will never get out. They did.

We can do the same lie fest regarding Stormy Daniels.

The real question is where has Trump's funding come from since circa 2006. He migrated from the "king of debt" to cash spending. Eric Trump did what Trump children do, put his foot in his mouth. According to him in 2014 they didn't need to borrow because they got all the money that they needed out of Russia.

 

[OUBubba]

And, Rudy has been a caricature of himself in the last few months. His law firm dropped him within days of when this poop show started.

Off the top of my head:

- he leaked Mueller's questions for Trump.
- Trump got rid of Comey because he wouldn't say Trump wasn't being investigated.
- he shocked hannity by letting him know that yes Trump did know about the $130,000 and that he had paid back Cohen. "they funneled it through a law firm". Sounds above board, right? Smash/cut to John Edwards
- Melania believes Trump when he says he did nothing with Stormy Daniels. That was just yesterday. Classic!

 

[HANNAHORN]

Bill Clinton apparently was. Only President to ever be found in contempt of court. Did you support removing Clinton from office?

Deflecting again.

 

[HANNAHORN]

Good Gawd! Everyone knows without a doubt that it’s a witch hunt. Even you do, but you’d never admit it.

You don't get to tell me what I believe and don't believe. I believe trump is a grad A turd.

 

[Mr. Deez]

It's like a Shakespearean drama.

Here's one chapter:
There was never any contact by Russians. Sessions, Flynn, DJT, DJT2, etc. all were incredulous that there were even accusations of contacts with Russians. Turns out there's an email and a pretty well documented meeting in Trump Tower with the purpose to get dirt on Hillary. Trump was "out of town". Turns out he was in NYC for a campaign event that night. I would speculate that he was at least in the building on speaker phone listening. "The meeting was nothing and was about adoptions". Turns out it was about the Maginsky Act that is so important to the Oligarchs that they have Bill Browder on the perpetual Interpol watch list so he can't travel effectively in Europe as more and more countries pass similar laws locking down this illegal Russian money. Hope Hicks pledged that these emails will never get out. They did.

We can do the same lie fest regarding Stormy Daniels.

The real question is where has Trump's funding come from since circa 2006. He migrated from the "king of debt" to cash spending. Eric Trump did what Trump children do, put his foot in his mouth. According to him in 2014 they didn't need to borrow because they got all the money that they needed out of Russia.

And, Rudy has been a caricature of himself in the last few months. His law firm dropped him within days of when this poop show started.

Off the top of my head:

- he leaked Mueller's questions for Trump.
- Trump got rid of Comey because he wouldn't say Trump wasn't being investigated.
- he shocked hannity by letting him know that yes Trump did know about the $130,000 and that he had paid back Cohen. "they funneled it through a law firm". Sounds above board, right? Smash/cut to John Edwards
- Melania believes Trump when he says he did nothing with Stormy Daniels. That was just yesterday. Classic!

So again, what laws got broken? You cited a bunch of stuff you don't like, but I'm not seeing a violation of anything here.

 

[Seattle Husker]

What specific acts or omissions support this claim, and what laws or ethical standards have been breached?

The investigation is still ongoing regarding laws that may have been broken. I suggest we all let Mueller do the job he was appointed to do. 19 people have been indited albeit most of whom were not in close contact with DJT. I personally think this is more than about just Trump which is where I may differ from other progressives.

Ethical? Surely you jest.

1) DJT Jr. was contacted directly by an agent of the Kremlin and with the promise of "dirt" on HRC. Furthermore, he went to meet with agents of the Kremlin. The fact that this didn't immediately prompt a call to the FBI is clearly unethical. The further lying about said meeting was more digging.
2) Flynn's meeting with Kislyak in which he lied about the contents of the meeting. Ethical?
3) DJT's failure to divest himself from Trump Inc. Ethical?

That's just a few examples (of many...Pruitt) that are ethical problems with people in Trump's orbit.

 

[Mr. Deez]

The investigation is still ongoing regarding laws that may have been broken. I suggest we all let

That's kinda my whole point here. If I call out I35 and Garmel for rushing to judgment as I frequently do, I have to do the same to Switzer.

Ethical? Surely you jest.

A politician was willing to accept dirt and lied? Are we calling that unethical now, because we pretty much never have.

 

[Seattle Husker]

That's kinda my whole point here. If I call out I35 and Garmel for rushing to judgment as I frequently do, I have to do the same to Switzer.

I agree. My message was to Barry as much as you. We all need to let the investigation continue and determine its merits after the findings. Claiming innocence/guilt before the evidence is presented is merely a display of ones own bias.

A politician was willing to accept dirt and lied? Are we calling that unethical now, because we pretty much never have.

Do you see the bar as the same in terms of accepting dirt from a US citizen vs. a foreign power, one who has been hostile to the US? The scale of the infraction is different. If we agree that what Manafort and DJT did was "unethical" then we may has well as claim ethics don't exist because the bar is being set so low as to be worthless. This is what the Trump Administration has wrought on us all.

 

[Garmel]

19 people have been indited albeit most of whom were in close contact with DJT.

13 were Russians with no connection to Trump. Many of the other ones were process crimes. Manafort is dirty. Flynn and Papadopulous(SP?) look dubious. Both forced to plead guilty.

1) DJT Jr. was contacted directly by an agent of the Kremlin and with the promise of "dirt" on HRC. Furthermore, he went to meet with agents of the Kremlin. The fact that this didn't immediately prompt a call to the FBI is clearly unethical. The further lying about said meeting was more digging.
2) Flynn's meeting with Kislyak in which he lied about the contents of the meeting. Ethical?
3) DJT's failure to divest himself from Trump Inc. Ethical?

That's just a few examples (of many...Pruitt) that are ethical problems with people in Trump's orbit.

If you have issues with Trump's orbit you better have issues with Obama and his orbit.

 

[Seattle Husker]

13 were Russians with no connection to Trump. Many of the other ones were process crimes. Manafort is dirty. Flynn and Papadopulous(SP?) look dubious.

Sorry...missed the word not which I intended to put in that passage. Manafort is dirty without a doubt. There is a good possibility that he could have been working with Russians given his former business in Ukraine and ties to Putin allies. We know he influenced updating the RNC platform towards a much softer stance on Russia/Crimea.

If you have issues with Trump's orbit you better have issues with Obama and his orbit.

Which members are are you talking about specifically? Bill Ayers and Rev. Wright were sideshows that had no role in Obama's campaign or administration. AG Lynch should have recused herself from the HRC Email investigation after the tarmac meeting with Bill. Who else?

 

[OUBubba]

Here's how you're supposed to handle it.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=122841&page=1

Downey turned over the materials to the FBI and pulled himself out of the debate prep team so that there would be no tainting of their debate efforts.

Trump Jr. should have contacted the FBI and worked with them to run an operation on the Russians if his mind was in the right place.

 

[Garmel]

talking about specifically? Bill Ayers and Rev. Wright were sideshows that had no role in Obama's campaign or administration. AG Lynch should have recused herself from the HRC Email investigation after the tarmac meeting with Bill. Who else?

Holder with Fast & Furious and the the head of IRS going after conservatives.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Holder with Fast & Furious and the the head of IRS going after conservatives.

Holder for Fast and Furious. Clearly the DOJ ****** up that operation and resisted getting their noses rubbed in their own feces.

Lois Lerner was, a Unit Director for the "Exempt Organizations Unit" within the IRS was in Obama's orbit? Do you think Obama knew who she was before her name hit the press? Keep in mind, the IG report doesn't support your belief IRS targeted any political parties.

"Our investigation uncovered substantial evidence of mismanagement, poor judgment, and institutional inertia, leading to the belief by many tax-exempt applicants that the IRS targeted them based on their political affairs," the letter said. "But poor management is not a crime."
...
He said the nearly two-year investigation by Justice and the FBI included more than 100 witness interviews and more than a million pages of IRS documents

"Not a single IRS employee reported any allegation, concern or suspicion that the handling of tax-exempt applications – or any other IRS function – was motivated by political bias, discriminatory intent, or corruption," Kadzik said.

 

[OUBubba]

From this guy on the twitter: Steve Vladeck Retweeted Josh Marshall

Progression:
1. Nothing happened.
2. Nothing bad happened.
3. Nothing illegal happened.
4. The Constitution protects the President even if something illegal happened.
5. The Constitution is wrong. What's next?

 

[Seattle Husker]

From this guy on the twitter: Steve Vladeck Retweeted Josh Marshall

Progression:
1. Nothing happened.
2. Nothing bad happened.
3. Nothing illegal happened.
4. The Constitution protects the President even if something illegal happened.
5. The Constitution is wrong. What's next?

Trump and his legal teams responses have clearly evolved which is why the "Witch Hunt" accusation is BS. I read a tweet somewhere that said if this is a Witch Hunt it's been successful...19 witches caught so far. Maybe we should lean in to the metaphor?

 

[Garmel]

Holder for Fast and Furious. Clearly the DOJ ****** up that operation and resisted getting their noses rubbed in their own feces.

Lois Lerner was, a Unit Director for the "Exempt Organizations Unit" within the IRS was in Obama's orbit? Do you think Obama knew who she was before her name hit the press? Keep in mind, the IG report doesn't support your belief IRS targeted any political parties.

Except that the IRS apologized and settled with cash to those aggrieved. Who was in control of the DOJ at the time? Btw, Holder might have gone to jail without Obama's help. (Executive order) Supposedly, the upcoming IG report hammers Lynch.

 

[Garmel]

Trump and his legal teams responses have clearly evolved which is why the "Witch Hunt" accusation is BS. I read a tweet somewhere that said if this is a Witch Hunt it's been successful...19 witches caught so far. Maybe we should lean in to the metaphor?

It was supposed to be about Russia collusion but they got everybody they could on any charge possible. You did pay attention to the judge who admonished Mueller, right? Have you looked at Mueller's history of destroying innocent people in order to justify his existence? There's a pretty good reason why most of America believes this investigation is politically motivated(according to polls).

 

[I35]

I’m not telling you what to do, but more what you are doing. Nobody believes you so you
can choose to continue to act like it’s not a witch hunt or not. It’s actually a
compliment to you because I don’t believe you are ignorant.

 

[Seattle Husker]

It was supposed to be about Russia collusion but they got everybody they could on any charge possible. You did pay attention to the judge who admonished Mueller, right? Have you looked at Mueller's history of destroying innocent people in order to justify his existence? There's a pretty good reason why most of America believes this investigation is politically motivated.

Yes, I read the single judges remarks. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Mueller's history of destroying innocent poeple to justify his existence? That's a bold claim that requires some facts not opinion.

Most of America? Most equals majority right? You got a link to support that claim? Keep in mind, you're measuring public relations effectiveness of which only one side is able to state their case.

I'll reiterate. Those who claim innocence (e.g. "witch hunt) or guilt without being presented with Mueller's evidence are merely demonstrating their own personal bias.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Except that the IRS apologized and settled with cash to those aggrieved. Who was in control of the DOJ at the time? Btw, Holder might have gone to jail without Obama's help. (Executive order) Supposedly, the upcoming IG report hammers Lynch.

The IRS settled a civil suit which admitted they unfairly targeted tea party groups. I don't remember the DOJ claiming the targeting was politically motivated which is what you appear to be asserting. The IRS has never been associated with competence.

On Holder, you're making claim after claim without any support. Feel free to support your claims at any time.

On Lynch, I've already stated she should have recused herself.

Notice that of the 3 situations above only the latter points emphatically to "ethics" and even with Lynch evidence in the Clinton Email scandal was that she effectively recused herself (or Comey recused her) as we know that Comey did not involve her in the more controversial decisions in the case.