Really bad teacher in Ohio
- Thread starter GT WT
- Start date
achooloco
100+ Posts
what a douchebag ******* idiot teacher. you believe in that, fine, but you dont teach it in science class especially when its against the law. the guy isnt a martyr, just a dick. hope he goes to pound me in the *** prison so he can really cry out god. seriously, burning students? thats ****** up. i feel the same way about scum like this as i do about pharmacists who dont give out birth control at like cvs or those muslim cabbies in some northern plain state that wouldnt take fares if they were carrying alcohol. keep that ******** out of the general public, and if you hate it so much, start your own company/school but dont get public funds and put out a big sign so i wont shop there.
as for the prayer before football games (games not practices or meetings) like the other teacher/lawyer cited..eh.. i'm not so against that only cause injuries happen and there are crazy almost divine looking plays on the field. but thats another matter even though i guess technically you can't really judge both situations differently.
as for the prayer before football games (games not practices or meetings) like the other teacher/lawyer cited..eh.. i'm not so against that only cause injuries happen and there are crazy almost divine looking plays on the field. but thats another matter even though i guess technically you can't really judge both situations differently.
THEU
2,500+ Posts
I don't understand why some are trying to bring in so many other issues here.
I am not here to defend this teacher one bit, but what has this to do with a pharmacist and their legal right to not dispense anything which they abject to morally?
And what has this to do with a Muslim cab driver who doesn't want alcohol in his cab?
I actually don't think these are related issues at all.
I am not here to defend this teacher one bit, but what has this to do with a pharmacist and their legal right to not dispense anything which they abject to morally?
And what has this to do with a Muslim cab driver who doesn't want alcohol in his cab?
I actually don't think these are related issues at all.
There was a segment on Geraldo (no, I normally don’t catch ‘Geraldo’) about this issue. The teacher was defended by Coach Dave Daubenmire (Google this name for some interesting links). Daubenmire claimed that in 2003 Freshwater “began to teach what was then the state standards to teach the controversy of evolution. And unfortunately he made the wrong people mad, and some of them have laid in the weeds for about five years to try to get back at …”. Geraldo interrupted Daubenmire, saying “Dave, Dave. I appreciate friendship, buddy, and I appreciate faith. But when you mess with a student physically like that you get fired, I don’t care what your religion is.”
scottsins
1,000+ Posts
actually, achoolco:
with regard to harm done, etc, that stuff doesn't even matter. a phrmacist should be fired if the company tells them to fill any script and they do not. some pharmacies do not mandate this, so they are not violating any company policy.
I believe that a pharmacist, doctor, teacher should fill/perform/teach whatever they want. HOWEVER, I also believe that their employers should be allowed to fire them if it is against the company's view. Arkansas tried to pass a bill saying that a pharmacy could not fire someone for refusing to fill birth control. that is f'ing ridiculous.
with regard to harm done, etc, that stuff doesn't even matter. a phrmacist should be fired if the company tells them to fill any script and they do not. some pharmacies do not mandate this, so they are not violating any company policy.
I believe that a pharmacist, doctor, teacher should fill/perform/teach whatever they want. HOWEVER, I also believe that their employers should be allowed to fire them if it is against the company's view. Arkansas tried to pass a bill saying that a pharmacy could not fire someone for refusing to fill birth control. that is f'ing ridiculous.
THEU
2,500+ Posts
Pharmacists being fired for not filling prescriptions has become a state by state test right now. In MA, I know that a pharmacist did get fired for not filling RU486 scripts. In Texas, a pharmacist's conscience is legally protected in not filling scripts, as I understand it.
I am sure that in Texas there will be a test case come out sometime on this issue.
While I can understand where your employer could make you fill a script, or pick up a taxi customer, I don't think the government can compel you to. What I am saying is that if you own your own cab, or pharmacy, then you can do what you like because it is your own business.
Interestingly enough, any pharmacist or doctor who gives anything to cause an abortion is violating the Hippocratic oath. (of course pharmacists and doctors neither one take the Hippocratic oath anymore).
These are matters of conscience where adults are not having ideas foisted upon them either. You have beer, you get into another cab, or even ask the Muslim cab driver to call you another cab. Doesn't seem like much harm there. If you are a pharmacist, then you ask another pharmacist or pharmacy to fill the script. It is my understanding in Texas that is what usually happens.
Also, you have to be careful here about mandating care for patients. Do you really want the state, telling medical professionals how to treat patients? Do you want a judge telling a doctor he MUST do a certain procedure? I don't.
I am sure that in Texas there will be a test case come out sometime on this issue.
While I can understand where your employer could make you fill a script, or pick up a taxi customer, I don't think the government can compel you to. What I am saying is that if you own your own cab, or pharmacy, then you can do what you like because it is your own business.
Interestingly enough, any pharmacist or doctor who gives anything to cause an abortion is violating the Hippocratic oath. (of course pharmacists and doctors neither one take the Hippocratic oath anymore).
These are matters of conscience where adults are not having ideas foisted upon them either. You have beer, you get into another cab, or even ask the Muslim cab driver to call you another cab. Doesn't seem like much harm there. If you are a pharmacist, then you ask another pharmacist or pharmacy to fill the script. It is my understanding in Texas that is what usually happens.
Also, you have to be careful here about mandating care for patients. Do you really want the state, telling medical professionals how to treat patients? Do you want a judge telling a doctor he MUST do a certain procedure? I don't.
Theu,
Am I wrong in consideringt a pharmacist to be in a medical support position. He doesn't make decisions about patient care, rather he fills a prescription written by a physician. If the pharmacist sometimes feels that the physician is asking him to do something immoral, it seems to me he should find a new profession.
Am I wrong in consideringt a pharmacist to be in a medical support position. He doesn't make decisions about patient care, rather he fills a prescription written by a physician. If the pharmacist sometimes feels that the physician is asking him to do something immoral, it seems to me he should find a new profession.
scottsins
1,000+ Posts
GT:
You are completely wrong in your assessment of what a pharmacist does/does not do. They call you their "patient". they are on the phone all day long with doctors, having scripts changed in various ways.
some pharmacists are clinical, and actually write and dispense meds to patients.
I am not picking on you, since about 10% of Americans 'get" what a pharmacist really is. they are not an order filler. you are their patient, and when they dispense to you, they are treating the patient. everything that a doc knows about diagnosing problems...pharms know about drug treatment issues.
My wife is a pharmacist, but Anastasis may pipe in on this one somewhere along the line. He can put it better than I do.
basically, if they jsut "did what the doc says to do", we would have **** ton of bad reactions and deaths in this country compared to what we do now. seriously.
You are completely wrong in your assessment of what a pharmacist does/does not do. They call you their "patient". they are on the phone all day long with doctors, having scripts changed in various ways.
some pharmacists are clinical, and actually write and dispense meds to patients.
I am not picking on you, since about 10% of Americans 'get" what a pharmacist really is. they are not an order filler. you are their patient, and when they dispense to you, they are treating the patient. everything that a doc knows about diagnosing problems...pharms know about drug treatment issues.
My wife is a pharmacist, but Anastasis may pipe in on this one somewhere along the line. He can put it better than I do.
basically, if they jsut "did what the doc says to do", we would have **** ton of bad reactions and deaths in this country compared to what we do now. seriously.
Here's my basic take on the "right of refusal" issue wrt birth control/abortifacients:
1. I would never refuse to fill a legitimate rx for an abortifacient on moral grounds. I think, based on the pharmacology and biology, that birth control pills, plan B, and other similar meds are abortifacients, but its not my job to be the moral policeman at the pharmacy. The decision to use a medication like Plan B is a very personal decision that should has to be made the woman who decides to take that pill. If a patient were to ask me if the medication is an abortifacient (which hasn't happened yet), I'd tell her the pharmacological truth, "yes it is". If they asked for my opinion of the morality associated with using Plan B (also hasn't happened), I'll tell them that I am a pharmacist not a priest, and perhaps they should discuss the issue with a spiritual advisor or somebody whose guidance on such issues they value.
2. I support the right of a pharmacist to refuse to fill a prescription in a case where they feel that dispensing that prescription violates a closely held moral belief. I think that in such situations, the primary obligation of the pharmacist is to make sure that the patient receives the medical treatment that they have been prescribed in a timely and reasonable manner (ie have another pharmacist at the shop fill the script, or do everything in their power to find another pharmacy that will dispense the medication). If all possible alternatives have been exhausted (eg small town, only pharmacy, no other pharmacist on staff), I feel that the pharmacist should dispense the medication and provide the counseling. In that case, IMO, the responsibility to the patient trumps the pharmacist's right to refuse. I also agree with sins that if a pharmacist acts in a manner inconsistent with their employers philosophy, that they can be fired, at the employers discretion.
Also, in the interests of full disclosure, I admit philosophical inconsistency on the issue. For example, if a pharmacist who was a scientologist refused to fill an rx for an antidepressant for person who was severely depressed and suicidal, I would probably argue that that person was unfit to perform the responsibilities of a healthcare professional, after I kicked em in the nuts. That's my personal inconsistency. So yes, I can appreciate that other people might feel the same way about a pharmacist refusing to fill BC/PlanB as I do about a scientologist refusing to fill an antidepressant.
And frankly, the whole issue has been overblown. These instances of refusal to fill are few and far between. It is largely a politically driven issue.
As far as what pharmacists do wrt support vs. clinical decision making, pharmacists can have a wide variety of levels of training and credentialing. Some have bachelors, some have doctorates, some have completed residencies (general or speciality), some are board certified in certain practice areas, etc. Yes, most work in retail settings (cha-ching) where the majority of work is perhaps more mechanical in nature and less clinical; however, even in retail setting pharmacists are required to use their clinical knowledge on a daily basis to optimize patient care. Whether that means identifying potential drug interactions and suggesting appropriate alternatives, or making sure a patient understands how to properly use their medication to receive the most benefit, or making treatment recommendations for common illnesses, or whether it means working with a physician to formulate a custom compounded medication preparation for an individual patient, pharmacists are more than just mechanical dispensers of medication. Outside of the retail setting, pharmacists serve in a number of other roles: as researchers, as members of inpatient treatment teams, with prescriptive authority in collaboration with physicians, as consultants, etc. I guess that I would prefer the term "collaborator", rather than "support", but I am admittedly biased.
1. I would never refuse to fill a legitimate rx for an abortifacient on moral grounds. I think, based on the pharmacology and biology, that birth control pills, plan B, and other similar meds are abortifacients, but its not my job to be the moral policeman at the pharmacy. The decision to use a medication like Plan B is a very personal decision that should has to be made the woman who decides to take that pill. If a patient were to ask me if the medication is an abortifacient (which hasn't happened yet), I'd tell her the pharmacological truth, "yes it is". If they asked for my opinion of the morality associated with using Plan B (also hasn't happened), I'll tell them that I am a pharmacist not a priest, and perhaps they should discuss the issue with a spiritual advisor or somebody whose guidance on such issues they value.
2. I support the right of a pharmacist to refuse to fill a prescription in a case where they feel that dispensing that prescription violates a closely held moral belief. I think that in such situations, the primary obligation of the pharmacist is to make sure that the patient receives the medical treatment that they have been prescribed in a timely and reasonable manner (ie have another pharmacist at the shop fill the script, or do everything in their power to find another pharmacy that will dispense the medication). If all possible alternatives have been exhausted (eg small town, only pharmacy, no other pharmacist on staff), I feel that the pharmacist should dispense the medication and provide the counseling. In that case, IMO, the responsibility to the patient trumps the pharmacist's right to refuse. I also agree with sins that if a pharmacist acts in a manner inconsistent with their employers philosophy, that they can be fired, at the employers discretion.
Also, in the interests of full disclosure, I admit philosophical inconsistency on the issue. For example, if a pharmacist who was a scientologist refused to fill an rx for an antidepressant for person who was severely depressed and suicidal, I would probably argue that that person was unfit to perform the responsibilities of a healthcare professional, after I kicked em in the nuts. That's my personal inconsistency. So yes, I can appreciate that other people might feel the same way about a pharmacist refusing to fill BC/PlanB as I do about a scientologist refusing to fill an antidepressant.
And frankly, the whole issue has been overblown. These instances of refusal to fill are few and far between. It is largely a politically driven issue.
As far as what pharmacists do wrt support vs. clinical decision making, pharmacists can have a wide variety of levels of training and credentialing. Some have bachelors, some have doctorates, some have completed residencies (general or speciality), some are board certified in certain practice areas, etc. Yes, most work in retail settings (cha-ching) where the majority of work is perhaps more mechanical in nature and less clinical; however, even in retail setting pharmacists are required to use their clinical knowledge on a daily basis to optimize patient care. Whether that means identifying potential drug interactions and suggesting appropriate alternatives, or making sure a patient understands how to properly use their medication to receive the most benefit, or making treatment recommendations for common illnesses, or whether it means working with a physician to formulate a custom compounded medication preparation for an individual patient, pharmacists are more than just mechanical dispensers of medication. Outside of the retail setting, pharmacists serve in a number of other roles: as researchers, as members of inpatient treatment teams, with prescriptive authority in collaboration with physicians, as consultants, etc. I guess that I would prefer the term "collaborator", rather than "support", but I am admittedly biased.
I know I have a rather simplistic viewpoint, but I think the pharmacist's job is to dispense the drugs prescribed by the physician and offer information about possible side effects/interactions with other drugs.
The pharmacist absolultey DOES NOT have the right to withhold medication if it is presribed by a physician, regardless of the drug or that pharmacist's moral beliefs.
If a pharmacist were to refuse to fill a scrip written for me by my doctor, I would file a complaint with the state board of pharmacy and do everything I could to have that pharmacist's license revoked by the state. It is NOT THEIR JOB to be the morality gatekeeper of the world. They do not have the right to withhold treatment from me.
The pharmacist absolultey DOES NOT have the right to withhold medication if it is presribed by a physician, regardless of the drug or that pharmacist's moral beliefs.
If a pharmacist were to refuse to fill a scrip written for me by my doctor, I would file a complaint with the state board of pharmacy and do everything I could to have that pharmacist's license revoked by the state. It is NOT THEIR JOB to be the morality gatekeeper of the world. They do not have the right to withhold treatment from me.
My apologies to Scottsins' wife, to Anastasis, and to my former local pharmacist in Palacios (who was much more helpful than my physician).
I think the perception I expressed is a common one. Today I, like many people, get most of my meds at Walmart ($$$), the rest are sent to me as 90-day supplies by a mail service. At Walmart I'm sure there is a well-trained pharmacist behind the counter somewhere, but I'm not sure who among the 5 or 6 employeees back there he or she is. It's no wonder that for me (& the other 90% who are misinformed) a pharmacist is just a dispenser of the drugs my MD prescribes.
Reading Anastasis' remarks, I see that the relationship should be very different. What is the profession doing to change this sad state of affairs?
I think the perception I expressed is a common one. Today I, like many people, get most of my meds at Walmart ($$$), the rest are sent to me as 90-day supplies by a mail service. At Walmart I'm sure there is a well-trained pharmacist behind the counter somewhere, but I'm not sure who among the 5 or 6 employeees back there he or she is. It's no wonder that for me (& the other 90% who are misinformed) a pharmacist is just a dispenser of the drugs my MD prescribes.
Reading Anastasis' remarks, I see that the relationship should be very different. What is the profession doing to change this sad state of affairs?
Anastasis,
It's one thing if you recognize that the doctor made a mistake, or that the combination of drugs that I am about to take could have a harmful effect. In fact, I EXPECT my pharmacist to take this role.
But to refuse to dispense a drug to ME because YOU don't agree with its purpose -- that's just wrong. and a misuse of your power.
It's one thing if you recognize that the doctor made a mistake, or that the combination of drugs that I am about to take could have a harmful effect. In fact, I EXPECT my pharmacist to take this role.
But to refuse to dispense a drug to ME because YOU don't agree with its purpose -- that's just wrong. and a misuse of your power.
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