Practice deaths in 17 years: NFL 0, NCAA 27

[ProdigalHorn]

Interesting read...

Perspective | Prehistoric college football coaches are killing players. It’s past time to stop them.

Heatstroke didn’t kill Jordan McNair, the berserk excesses of coach DJ Durkin and his staff did. No amount of “honoring” McNair can pretty up that fact. The investigation into what Maryland did wrong after McNair collapsed is misplaced. It’s what came first — the deranged college coaching mentality that drove McNair to the staggering point — that requires full inquiry, and no one should be allowed to forget it.

An NFL player hasn’t died from heat exertion in 17 years. That’s the full measure of the crude, knuckle-dragging stupidity at work here. You know how many kids NCAA football coaches have killed with conditioning drills in that same period? Twenty-seven. I say “kill,” because that’s what it is, when tyrants force captive young men to run themselves to death, out of their own outdated fears of weakness. Why is the NCAA tolerating this kill rate, which is unmatched at any other level of football?

Professional coaches have understood since the lamentable loss of Minnesota Vikings lineman Korey Stringer in 2001 that you don’t build a player by driving him to the brink of organ failure in practice. Only the most backward or mean coach still thinks summer sprints are the only way to breed toughness. Everyone else has learned better, everyone but lunatic over-striving NCAA wannabes who are in such a big a hurry to prove themselves big dogs. The Pete Carrolls and Bill Belichicks aren’t putting their players in the ground; they’re putting them in virtual reality chambers. Only the NCAA tolerates — and refuses to regulate — unhinged dictators who think football has to be conditioned with sadistic extremes.

 

[Horns11]

It's a bit selective to say that there aren't NFL assistants who treat their players like crap, both physically and emotionally. Just watch half an episode of Hard Knocks to see that. Gregg Williams might be one of the worst offenders.

Plus, there are literally 40x as many NCAA football players as NFL players across all divisions, so the number is always going to be higher in the NCAA (gotta give props to the zero for the NFL teams though).

There's definitely something to the team mindset about overcoming summer physical obstacles in order to grow together. When VY and Colt did it, they were considered folk hero style leaders. Maybe when a strength coach "enforces" it, that's when it crosses into villainy.

If you want to fix the system, the whole "not having contact with athletes" windows are stupid and ineffectual. They were put in place to keep the amateur status of the athletes in check so that the sport wouldn't become a full time job. That ship has sailed. If Durkin was allowed to "coach" the athletes over the summer, maybe it could have been prevented. Or not, if he is an *******.

 

[Buck-Horn]

Can you say “Junction Boys”?!? Prodigal, I agree with you on this. The days of Bear Bryant (and countless others) are gone! I recall playing HS basketball in the late 60’s. Back then, coaches were ruthless and would drive you till you puked. And above all is the STUPID notion that you went hours without water....then took salt pills as if that would replace all the salt we sweated out. Science has come a LONG way over many decades. The human being has limits on physical stress. Having said that, I do not want to see this swing so far the other way, that athletes can’t be pushed to their limit....but, you must know where that limit is. I’m still old school enough to believe in concept of instilling some level of fear, physical discipline and demand for TRYING to attain perfection in players....those are positive forces when executed by the right coaching staff. I sense TH may be one of those right coaches.

 

[4th_floor]

......................................Plus, there are literally 40x as many NCAA football players as NFL players across all divisions, so the number is always going to be higher in the NCAA (gotta give props to the zero for the NFL teams though).
..........

True Dat. Also consider that Darwinism has removed the weaker, more susceptible parts of the population during the college years. Sometimes it is literally survival of the fittest as some of the unfit actually die.

 

[Austin_Bill]

Hate snowflake journalism. The reason she referred to 17 years is because her argument holds little water if she goes 18.

 

[Buck-Horn]

Hate snowflake journalism. The reason she referred to 17 years is because her argument holds little water if she goes 18.

I get your point. But, I think what the writer is pointing out is that since the death of Korey Stringer in 2001, the NFL has seemingly has done a much better job of monitoring player health conditions. I can't say that is FACT, but the "deaths" data is pretty compelling. There are certainly other factors. The NFL and their franchises (teams) have the resources that many NCAA schools don't have. I also believe that many college administrators (AD's, etc.) probably aren't as diligent as NFL administrators (GM's, etc.) in making sure their coaching staff and trainers are following strict protocols. One death is too many....the schools just have to learn from these incidents and pay more attention to prevention methods.

 

[Phil Elliott]

And above all is the STUPID notion that you went hours without water....then took salt pills as if that would replace all the salt we sweated out.

When I tell younger men about how we could not have water until after practice and were given salt pills in the 70s, they are like, no way, you are making that up. This was on the Gulf Coast of Texas, mind you, where it's a bit steamy in the late summer and fall.

 

[LousianaHorn]

When I tell younger men about how we could not have water until after practice and were given salt pills in the 70s, they are like, no way, you are making that up. This was on the Gulf Coast of Texas, mind you, where it's a bit steamy in the late summer and fall.

Same here Phil, we got a cup of Ice halfway thru practice and ate a handful of salt tablets before hand...........bet our blood pressure was thru the roof! "They" still tell you to do that if you are going to be in a hot place such as hiking in Big Bend

 

[Buck-Horn]

Yep....I was in Houston and it's TRUE!!! We also got swats (paddled), sprint til you drop as punishment, screaming coaches, etc. I recall one practice, I was sort of cutting up with one of my buddies and the coach threw a basketball at my head. I still get a good laugh at all those 'war stores' we tell with our past teammates & friends today! But, I wouldn't trade those times for anything!

 

[ViperHorn]

When I tell younger men about how we could not have water until after practice and were given salt pills in the 70s, they are like, no way, you are making that up. This was on the Gulf Coast of Texas, mind you, where it's a bit steamy in the late summer and fall.

The only person who could cuss more at me other than a coach was a toolpusher in Abu Dhabi (and I was his boos).

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

At my daughters school, anyone in athletics has to do conditioning and weights if they are not in the season of their sport. Everyone was on the football field running sprints across the field. One side was pushups and they would sprint to the other side and do sit ups.....20 sprints each way.

Thing is they just built a new stadium with turf...the kind with the little black beads. The temperature was 102 with the turf temp at 120 while doing all this workout until a girl passed out.

It's been a while since I worked out in those conditions and I frequently know football games at UT have similar field temps, but does anyone think I should complain? Seems awfully hot to be doing that much but I dont want to be the wuss.

 

[SabreHorn]

Vol,

The heat is only one issue that can make kids sick. That turf is made of carbon black, oil, and methane gas. The methane gas is constantly escaping into the air. There are two lawsuits brought by parents of sick kids in NJ & Mass. Less than a decade ago, the EPA issued a paper that said they would no longer condone nor support the use of crumb rubber for playing surfaces. That article was up very briefly before someone got paid off and it can no longer be found. (Typical of our federal government; biggest payoff wins)

No, I am not an environmentalist, tree hugger, whale kisser. In fact, I have a pretty significant interest in the carbon black industry

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

Vol,

The heat is only one issue that can make kids sick. That turf is made of carbon black, oil, and methane gas. The methane gas is constantly escaping into the air. There are two lawsuits brought by parents of sick kids in NJ & Mass. Less than a decade ago, the EPA issued a paper that said they would no longer condone nor support the use of crumb rubber for playing surfaces. That article was up very briefly before someone got paid off and it can no longer be found. (Typical of our federal government; biggest payoff wins)

No, I am not an environmentalist, tree hugger, whale kisser. In fact, I have a pretty significant interest in the carbon black industry

Wow, hadn't heard that info. Thanks!

 

[blonthang]

Okay, not to play smarty pants here, but I do have civil (BS) and environmental engineering (MS) degrees from UT Austin and my PhD is in environmental science from a UT component school (not UT Austin) during which I completed coursework in such areas as toxicology, biometry, and epidemiology. I also worked for about 25 years in hazardous waste site investigation and remediation. The compounds of carbon black, oil, and methane or similar or related compounds would not have been unusual constituents of concern at the various sites I evaluated.

Doesn't make me an expert in the specifics of methane emissions from field turf, but developed in me a keen sense of first pass evaluation of claims as to reasonableness, or not.


On the methodical, plodding, institutional side of this topic, the most recent authoritative federal discussion of this topic seems to be the following (c.2017), mostly links to other, proposed investigations:

Federal Research on Recycled Tire Crumb Used on Playing Fields | US EPA

Mostly saying, hey, we're working on it.


On the alarmist side (I'm not saying wrong, just alarmist as opposed to indifference or sobriety) is such an article as the following, entitled:

A Cocktail of Harmful Chemicals in Artificial Turf Infill
A Cocktail of Harmful Chemicals in Artificial Turf Infill - Center for Environmental Health

A similar article about residential yard fertilizer you buy at Home
Depot could likewise be entitled:

A Cocktail of Harmful Chemicals in Artificial Yard Fertilizer
[such as ammonia, copper sulfate, potash, etc., etc.]):

Early in the article you find the following statement:
----------
As the Mt. Sinai Children’s Environmental Health Center has written: “Exposures to chemicals present in crumb rubber at very high levels, typical of animal or occupational studies, are known to cause birth defects, neurologic and developmental deficits, and some can even cause cancer.
----------

Wow. Read this very carefully. I agree with it; however, the uninitiated may take from this statement that there is a known high risk.

That's NOT what the statement says. It says that "Exposures.....at VERY HIGH LEVELS, TYPICAL OF ANIMAL OR OCCUPATIONAL STUDIES..." But it does NOT then say that the typical athlete or user of a field turf surface is exposed to VERY HIGH LEVELS. Critical distinction. This is a misleading, alarmist statement.

Somewhat akin to claiming that "...exposure to very high levels of compound A, via inhalation, is known to result in about 3,500 deaths per year in the U.S." True statement, compound A is water, and the cause of death is drowning due to inhalation of very high levels 'typical of animal or occupational studies.'

I could not find any study to date that has found that athletes or other users of field turf are regularly "Exposed to chemicals present in crumb rubber at very high levels...." They may; they may not, studies are underway.

All of us are periodically exposed to known human carcinogens and neurotoxics by our own choice, BTEX (benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, xylene), when we fill our vehicle with gasoline. Smell it?, you've inhaled it, you've been exposed to it. Oh, and your children inside your car, too. Shameless, I say!! Where is CPS?? Law of Paracelcus: "the dose makes the poision."

Actually, the article actually admits (I assume they're referring to the 2017 EPA publication and links above in this thread):
-------------
Unfortunately, children’s exposure to these chemicals while using artificial turf fields has not been adequately studied (my emphasis added). The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, in its most recent evaluation of its study of crumb rubber, determined that it was not possible for the agency to reach “comprehensive conclusions without the consideration of additional data.”
--------------

Good brief on current status of issue:

NCHR Comments on NTP's Crumb Rubber Research Program Update | National Center for Health Research

which references the ongoing efforts of the National Toxicology Program of the National Institutes of Health:

Synthetic Turf/Recycled Tire Crumb Rubber


Regarding methane emissions, methane is a "non-toxic" gas, with concerns of risk of human exposure being at relatively high concentrations, in the 5% or higher range of ambient air exposure. 5% is really high, 50,000 parts per million (ppm). For example, humans can begin to smell benzene (gasoline component noted above) at ambient air levels of 60 ppm (note: methane has no odor).

From 5% to about 15% in air, methane is explosive. So that's a human exposure risk if the methane ignites.

The other exposure risk is asphyxiation. We're talking beyond chemical plant exposures here, folks. Air is 21% O2. Humans go wobbly around 16% O2, fall dead around 10% O2. Methane concentrations would need to get to 50% of the air for it to become a fatal asphyxiant. Try as it might, don't see how field turf infill could generate either 5% concentration of methane in air to result in an explosive risk; or 50% as an asphyxiant risk.

Not only that, either case would be at original installation and diminish quickly. Offgassing of volatile organic compounds (VOCs, methane being one) is high at first, decreasing with time and exposure to atmospheric heat (sun) and brownian diffusion in air above its release point.

I just don't see methane being even in the discussion; and don't find it in study targets along such concerns as carbon black, etc. And I think most studies are looking at skin exposures (falling on, rolling about, etc.), "dust-up" inhalation of particulate matter with VOCs embedded, accidental ingestion of "dust-up", etc.

One concern which, FINALLY, takes us back to the thread topic, which I DO believe is a REAL risk is temperature elevation of field turf from solar energy as compared to natural grass.

One anecdote in the above articles quotes a BYU study which indicated field turf temperature readings at a field where ambient temperature was about 95 def F that resulted in a field turf reading of 200 deg F.!!! Apparently some chemical reactions being stimulated and thus generating even more heat? Yes, 200 deg F can not only burn skin (150 deg F water for 2 seconds can cause 3rd degree burns) but sounds like a whole lot of heat being generated which can easily lead to heat exhaustion/stress/stroke. But also should consider age of turf and infill, this effect should diminish with time, if caused by a chemical degradation reaction of organic compounds in either the turf blades or infill.

 

[X Misn Tx]

I agree with the knuckle dragging...but one factor to be considered is that players always go through college first to get to the nfl. Which means, college football might be filtering out the vulnerable persons. It's hard to know.

 

[ProdigalHorn]

Hate snowflake journalism.

You're talking about kids dying. Do you really want to call them or their parents or people who think more should be done "snowflakes?"

 

[Austin_Bill]

You're talking about kids dying. Do you really want to call them or their parents or people who think more should be done "snowflakes?"

No, I'm talking about journalist who try to get their point across by manipulating numbers and facts. Who uses the # 17 as a reference point? Someone who understands that if they go to 18 or 20 their point is diminished.

This was one kid that died due to the actions of a coaching staff, where was the outrage when all those others died? why now? Because up until now, it wasn't a Big 10 school.

My high school had two deaths attributed to the game of football. In 1982 a young man named Byron Miller ran a typical running play and was tackled. He got up felt sick, and then collapsed and died on the field of an Aneurysm. I attended his funeral.

The second was a young man named David Edwards who died after breaking his neck doing a routine tackle.

I'm well aware of young men whose lives have been cut short due to this game. I saw how Edwards death affected the Madison coaching staff first hand. I don't wish that on anyone.

However, my comments aren't about the incidents or deaths but rather the journalist who are nothing but a bunch of muckrakers trying to make a name for themselves by displays of fake outrage over this very serious issue.

Yes, she is as fake as it gets. Her motive as I said was to make a name for herself by fake outrage meant to reach the snowflakes of our society.