Players are the ones who don't care

[NRHorn]

NR,

I have to disagree. The $$$ will remember the players and the reckless, unprofessional way Herman handled it. That will not be forgotten nor forgiven.

I know Sabre, and that’s a good point.
This is one of the few times that I can make a case either way- and like I said when Herman made that statement, I was shocked.

 

[LHABSOB]

I think it is a small minority that is going to get all in an uproar over Herman's comments and hold a grudge against him and they players over time. Did I like everything he said- no. It is going to impact my donation level or support for the team no. At the end of the day there is one thing that matters at that's winning. He needs to figure out how to get a W at the State Fair- 1 and 3 ain't going to cut it. He needs to figure out how to get his team up for every game and how to steam roll the patsies on our schedule without making every game a nail biter. Do I care how well he is building relationships with TX high school coaches or recruiting in state or how his coordinators scheme week to week- yes I do but only in the context of putting a winning product on the field. Hell I think Saban is a POS- but the people in Tuscaloosa love him- why- because he wins. I don't think we need hire coaches based on their social stances or if they make me feel warm and fuzzy inside. I want a coach that wins. That will be my measuring stick for Herman. And by the way- right now- he ain't cuttin it.

 

[Horns11]

Here goes:

“Can the average fan relate? No, they can't.”

Relate to what? Being treated like Kings and having the world placed at their feet? You’re right. I cannot relate to that.

There's a double standard maybe a little bit. We're going to pack 100,000 people into DKR and millions watch on TV that are predominantly white — not all of them certainly, but most of 'em white. We're gonna cheer when they score touchdowns, and we're gonna hug our buddy when they get sacks or an interception.”

Is there a problem with this? Texas fans have been doing this since I began attending games in the early 60s. Those teams were all white.

“But we gonna let them date our daughter?”

This is a BS/cop out comment that has no relevance.

Plenty of parents don’t want their daughters dating “any” football players. Most of us understand why.

Plenty of Jewish parents want their Jewish daughters dating Jews.

Plenty of Hispanic parents would prefer that their Hispanic daughters date Hispanics.

Plenty of Black parents would prefer that their Black daughters date Blacks, not Whites. Is that racist?

Welcome to the real world.

Most parents prefer that their daughters date men that are of a similar background, religion and race. Why? Because marriage is difficult enough without additional challenges.

Herman made a stupid, inappropriate and racist assumption to appease his players. I thought he was smarter than that, but he isn’t.

“Are we going to hire them in a position of power in our company? That's the question I have for America. You can't have it both ways.”

More BS. He is suggesting widespread racism with respect to employment. I don’t buy it. In fact, MANY companies today make a special effort to hire AA because they believe that it’s the right thing to do. And sometimes they do it to the detriment of other, often more qualified candidates.

Few companies today wouldn’t be thrilled to have an AA on their board, or at at position of responsibility in their company. But to hire someone based solely on the color of their skin is as racist as not hiring someone because of the color of the skin.

“And if you're going to cheer them and love them for three-and-a-half hours a Saturday in the fall, you better have the same feelings for them off the field, because they're there human beings. They deserve the same amount of respect and human rights that all of us do in this country when we agreed on the social contract to be a member of the United States.”

Tom, who the hell thinks that they are not getting such respect? Ex players of any color are revered, treated like royalty, and given preferential treatment all the time.

********

Herman sold out, and threw the Texas fan base under the bus. He owes us all a massive apology.

I want him gone.

For the "date your daughter" comment, he was alluding to the color of their skin. Taking a magnifying glass to it and saying "well there could be plenty of reasons why not to let a football player date your daughter" is obviously not what he was referring to. And reframing it as "preference" instead of racism is exactly what the state of Virginia did until the Loving case. If a white parent wanted his daughter dating a white boy, but she fell in love with a black football player and the parents forbade the relationship because of skin color, it's racism, whether preferential or not. Getting into the supplemental reasons for why she shouldn't date him kind of "dabbles" in racism, depending on the reason, but that's outside what he was talking about.

I don't disagree about the hiring statement. I think most businesses make an effort to try to hire minority candidates. But even in the public sector, like hiring college football coaches at big state schools, I think anyone with a calculator and eyes can tell that the percentages don't match up, especially considering people with sports experience should be the ones who understand the most about said sport.

As for the "you better have the same feelings for them off the field" comment, I look at it two ways. I don't equate "respect and human rights" with the preferential treatment examples. I think he was more talking about the bare minimum (not being racist) and not the other advantages that scholarship athletes receive because of talents. And I also think it's aimed at those who, upon encountering a nameless athlete on the street, would treat them the same as any non-athlete of any race. Say what you will about players being revered and receiving benefits, and I have my stories about what has happened to several former players and things they encountered on streets, in people's private residences, and even some of the saints we've had (one in particular who is still well-liked around Austin) who literally ended every sentence with "sir" being held against the wall of the gas station at 7th and SB I35 while some dufuses accused him of stealing from an open car door that he didn't go near. THOSE are the folks Tom is calling out. If it's not you, then it's not you.

 

[dukesteer]

For the "date your daughter" comment, he was alluding to the color of their skin. Taking a magnifying glass to it and saying "well there could be plenty of reasons why not to let a football player date your daughter" is obviously not what he was referring to. And reframing it as "preference" instead of racism is exactly what the state of Virginia did until the Loving case. If a white parent wanted his daughter dating a white boy, but she fell in love with a black football player and the parents forbade the relationship because of skin color, it's racism, whether preferential or not. Getting into the supplemental reasons for why she shouldn't date him kind of "dabbles" in racism, depending on the reason, but that's outside what he was talking about.

I don't disagree about the hiring statement. I think most businesses make an effort to try to hire minority candidates. But even in the public sector, like hiring college football coaches at big state schools, I think anyone with a calculator and eyes can tell that the percentages don't match up, especially considering people with sports experience should be the ones who understand the most about said sport.

As for the "you better have the same feelings for them off the field" comment, I look at it two ways. I don't equate "respect and human rights" with the preferential treatment examples. I think he was more talking about the bare minimum (not being racist) and not the other advantages that scholarship athletes receive because of talents. And I also think it's aimed at those who, upon encountering a nameless athlete on the street, would treat them the same as any non-athlete of any race. Say what you will about players being revered and receiving benefits, and I have my stories about what has happened to several former players and things they encountered on streets, in people's private residences, and even some of the saints we've had (one in particular who is still well-liked around Austin) who literally ended every sentence with "sir" being held against the wall of the gas station at 7th and SB I35 while some dufuses accused him of stealing from an open car door that he didn't go near. THOSE are the folks Tom is calling out. If it's not you, then it's not you.

11, Herman was basically reinforcing the false narrative that all whites are inherently racist, and that whites and white privilege are the reason that blacks in this country have continued to struggle. That’s exactly what he was saying. It’s baloney and the BLM movement — which was the basis for the manipulation — has virtually nothing to do with improving the lives of blacks.

I get his dilemma: He’s dealing with manipulated, emotional and impressionable individuals like Eagles, Sterns and others. But to throw millions of dedicated, life long and passionate fans under the bus and brand them — brand me and you — as racist to show support for some of his players is beyond despicable.

 

[RainH2burntO]

I'm not really still banging the drum on this one....and worked up about it....But I do have a viewpoint and frankly don't see how anyone, whether they thought the comments were personally offensive or not, could deny that they could easily be offensive to some. And, even more so, I do not see how anyone could argue these comments weren't directed at the (white only) UT fans at large - and if you or I are a (white) fan then they most certainly were directed at "us" collectively...and individually.
You cannot direct a comment at a group of people and then argue, "I wasnt talking to you" to the individuals who comprise the group. He most certainly was talking to everyone on this board and beyond (who is white) and are Hornsfans, individually and collectively, or he was talking to an inanimate entity with no ears, brains or reasoning ability and therefore shouldn't have been talking.

 

[Horns11]

11, Herman was basically reinforcing the false narrative that all whites are inherently racist, and that whites and white privilege are the reason that blacks in this country have continued to struggle. That’s exactly what he was saying. It’s baloney and the BLM movement — which was the basis for the manipulation — has virtually nothing to do with improving the lives of blacks.

I get his dilemma: He’s dealing with manipulated, emotional and impressionable individuals like Eagles, Sterns and others. But to throw millions of dedicated, life long and passionate fans under the bus and brand them — brand me and you — as racist to show support for some of his players is beyond despicable.

We'll just leave it at agree to disagree (again), but three things about your post:

1. There's nothing in his statement about all whites being racist. He's literally asking people to check whether those problems exist for them. And even has an "out" for those to whom it doesn't apply.

2. The continued condescension about players being too "emotional" or weak-minded or whatever to rationally understand the social awareness issues that affect them feeds right into Herman's quote. It's easy to use black players' names and call them "manipulated" (twice)... what about Ehlinger/Cosmi? Are they part of the brainwashing by the Marxists too? Or my former teacher, the 81-year-old UT grad who sits on a small-town city council and still has baseball season tickets? Is he?

3. I wasn't branded by anything in Herman's quote. I read what he had to say, agreed with parts of it, and disagreed with the businesses line. The only people I think he's attacking are racists. And I'm fine with that.

 

[Pomspoms]

TH is not a diplomat, that is a weakness.
He's in a difficult position and had to choose placating his players or the white majority fan base, at least, in his mind. As a white male fan I was somewhat offended but he has to keep the team together. He knows his time is short if he doesn't produce so he took a shot. I can shake off his comments because I love Texas football and we are on the verge of success. I just feel like with the new coaches we are going to roll and when we do we will keep our better in state recruits. While looking the other way smells a little bit I'll get over it for the most part. But he'll be out of here quickly if he keeps finishing second to OU and has 3or4 losses per season. He rolled the dice, said what he said, but it looks like it's working.

 

[Galvestonhorn]

The best thing for TH to have done is to have stfu and understand that you don’t do yourself any harm by shutting tfu

 

[AC]

I am not aware of any coaches on Horn Fans. I mean professional coaches. None of us really knows what it's like day to day. This situation could have ripped apart the team. TH did the best he could do, rally his players to finish this strong and stay together. His back was against the wall. He had few good options at his disposal. I've had my back against the wall in a public, racially charged environment, TV camera's rolling. So I know how that feels at least.

All due respect Galvestonhorn. TH could NOT STFU. He had to make a statement. Had he done nothing. Many players would have hit the portal. A big chunk of the starting line up. I guess I have a different perspective than most of you. Go startup a manufacturing company in South Louisiana and you'll see.

 

[Run Pincher]

I am not aware of any coaches on Horn Fans. I mean professional coaches. None of us really knows what it's like day to day. This situation could have ripped apart the team. TH did the best he could do, rally his players to finish this strong and stay together. His back was against the wall. He had few good options at his disposal. I've had my back against the wall in a public, racially charged environment, TV camera's rolling. So I know how that feels at least.

All due respect Galvestonhorn. TH could NOT STFU. He had to make a statement. Had he done nothing. Many players would have hit the portal. A big chunk of the starting line up. I guess I have a different perspective than most of you. Go startup a manufacturing company in South Louisiana and you'll see.

I think he could've had discussion(s) with the team in private. There was no need for him to make the public statements he made. I've only seen public statements like that from a few other head coaches, certainly not very many or the majority.

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

The best thing for TH to have done is to have stfu and understand that you don’t do yourself any harm by shutting tfu

This strategy has certainly worked for Shaka Smart

 

[RainH2burntO]

We'll just leave it at agree to disagree (again), but three things about your post:

1. There's nothing in his statement about all whites being racist. He's literally asking people to check whether those problems exist for them. And even has an "out" for those to whom it doesn't apply.

2. The continued condescension about players being too "emotional" or weak-minded or whatever to rationally understand the social awareness issues that affect them feeds right into Herman's quote. It's easy to use black players' names and call them "manipulated" (twice)... what about Ehlinger/Cosmi? Are they part of the brainwashing by the Marxists too? Or my former teacher, the 81-year-old UT grad who sits on a small-town city council and still has baseball season tickets? Is he?

3. I wasn't branded by anything in Herman's quote. I read what he had to say, agreed with parts of it, and disagreed with the businesses line. The only people I think he's attacking are racists. And I'm fine with that.

Think these are fair points, 11.
I can understand and respect a position such as yours and yet see validity in the arguments some of us are making. Really don't see why it has to be one or the other...except for arguments sake.
I bet if TH responded to these posts privately (ha ha) he would confirm your stated view of what he said while acknowledging that he could see how he might have unintentionally offended some and could have stated things differently.
Obviously he offended quite a few people whether he intended to or not. It would be like me telling my wife it is OK for me to get my feelings hurt about something but I get to tell her whether or not she can on a particular subject.
If we are going to talk about fairness, feelings, respect and all...It must go both ways, and one side cant be the only one determining the scope and/or components.

 

[erbutch]

Think these are fair points, 11.
I can understand and respect a position such as yours and yet see validity in the arguments some of us are making. Really don't see why it has to be one or the other...except for arguments sake.
I bet if TH responded to these posts privately (ha ha) he would confirm your stated view of what he said while acknowledging that he could see how he might have unintentionally offended some and could have stated things differently.
Obviously he offended quite a few people wherger he intended to or not. It would be like me telling my wife it is OK for me to get my feelings hurt about something but I get to tell her whether or not she can on a particular subject.
If we are going to talk about fairness, feelings, respect and all...It must go both ways, and one side cant be the only one determining the scope and/or components.

If TH was here to answer those questions,he would still be the arrogant person he has always been.That is the reason he cannot get along with the high school coaches in this state. He has the californian attitude and is using this job to advance his career. He gave in to the players for his career,not for them. I was glad to see him come when he was hired. I will be equally glad when he leaves. He is just a younger Makovic that can recruit.

 

[Orangeyman]

TH is not a diplomat, that is a weakness.
He's in a difficult position and had to choose placating his players or the white majority fan base, at least, in his mind. As a white male fan I was somewhat offended but he has to keep the team together. He knows his time is short if he doesn't produce so he took a shot. I can shake off his comments because I love Texas football and we are on the verge of success. I just feel like with the new coaches we are going to roll and when we do we will keep our better in state recruits. While looking the other way smells a little bit I'll get over it for the most part. But he'll be out of here quickly if he keeps finishing second to OU and has 3or4 losses per season. He rolled the dice, said what he said, but it looks like it's working.

He clearly is not a diplomat. Unfortunately, I think the most important question is: "What are Tom Herman's strengths?" I don't ask this sarcastically- I am serious. It is easy for me to see what his weaknesses seem be: undiplomatic, marginally articulate, predictable, surly at times, immature at times, among others. What does he do/have that is outstanding or commensurate with his position, responsibility and compensation?

 

[Pomspoms]

If TH was here to answer those questions,he would still be the arrogant person he has always been.That is the reason he cannot get along with the high school coaches in this state. He has the californian attitude and is using this job to advance his career. He gave in to the players for his career,not for them. I was glad to see him come when he was hired. I will be equally glad when he leaves. He is just a younger Makovic that can recruit.

TH is a little immature and arrogant. But if we get into the playoffs every other year, that's fine with me. But if he fails and had to leave that's fine with me. Hell, I hope we get Urban Meyer, another arrogant SOB. Too bad Lou holtz is older than the hills, I'd take him. At least he is a personable person who can relate to High School coaches. Most coaches are arrogant. Maybe there is no one perfect.

 

[horninchicago]

So, if fans don't care of the head coach is arrogant, why do HS coaches care? What is the hierarchy there? Don't HS coaches aspire to moving up? Seems to me it ain't his arrogance, it's his crappy coaching.

Wouldn't HS coaches want their players to go play for an arrogant coach if he was good?

 

[Orangeyman]

So, if fans don't care of the head coach is arrogant, why do HS coaches care? What is the hierarchy there? Don't HS coaches aspire to moving up? Seems to me it ain't his arrogance, it's his crappy coaching.

Wouldn't HS coaches want their players to go play for an arrogant coach if he was good?

Could not care less about the "arrogant" part. I am not sure what TH has done thus far in his career to have an air of arrogance. Over the years, I have had lots of arrogant people in my firm- some outstanding performers others not so much. So, I don't see arrogance as a reliable indicator one way or another relating to performance. I have seen glimpses of his immaturity. That is something, in my view, that almost always turns out badly.

 

[horninchicago]

Could not care less about the "arrogant" part. I am not sure what TH has done thus far in his career to have an air of arrogance. Over the years, I have had lots of arrogant people in my firm- some outstanding performers others not so much. So, I don't see arrogance as a reliable indicator one way or another relating to performance. I have seen glimpses of his immaturity. That is something, in my view, that almost always turns out badly.

Exactly, so when I read about his arrogance and how HS coaches don't like that, I don't buy it. Just like fans, they, seems to me, will try to get their players recruited by the best coaches, not the nicest ones.

 

[SabreHorn]

What are Tom Herman's strengths?"

The ability to piss people off

f we get into the playoffs every other year, that's fine with me.

Hard to think about "playoffs: when we're losing 3-4 games a year.

 

[horninchicago]

Hard to think about "playoffs: when we're losing 3-4 games a year.

Obligatory....

 

[BrntOrngStmpeDe]

I agree that it was a stab at earning points with his players and maybe he feels like the wheels were going to come off if he didn't do something, but that "something" was wrong. He did throw the fanbase under the bus and imply that we are racist and I will not forget it. He now has no margin for error with the fanbase. If he wins 11+, there will be enough excitement to get a pass, but anything less and we'll be calling for his head.

Nobody tells their daughter who to date anymore. seems like in the effort to call us racist, he shows us how he is a little sexist.

As for "hire them for your boards". Most of these athletes got thru HS because of athlete-bonus points, they certainly got into UT based on athlete-bonus points. Why the heck would I put someone on my board that got an 800 combined on their SAT? and majored in Kinesiology, or Sports Medicine?

 

[SabreHorn]

First consideration in this discussion:

HERMAN SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH HIS PLAYERS!

He put himself in a position of damage control from the first minute. That is not a leader. Leaders do not let leaches infiltrate their organization. I hate to think the results of an NCAA sweep for agents in Herman's program.

 

[Chinstrap]

Here goes:

“Can the average fan relate? No, they can't.”

Relate to what? Being treated like Kings and having the world placed at their feet? You’re right. I cannot relate to that.

There's a double standard maybe a little bit. We're going to pack 100,000 people into DKR and millions watch on TV that are predominantly white — not all of them certainly, but most of 'em white. We're gonna cheer when they score touchdowns, and we're gonna hug our buddy when they get sacks or an interception.”

Is there a problem with this? Texas fans have been doing this since I began attending games in the early 60s. Those teams were all white.

“But we gonna let them date our daughter?”

This is a BS/cop out comment that has no relevance.

Plenty of parents don’t want their daughters dating “any” football players. Most of us understand why.

Plenty of Jewish parents want their Jewish daughters dating Jews.

Plenty of Hispanic parents would prefer that their Hispanic daughters date Hispanics.

Plenty of Black parents would prefer that their Black daughters date Blacks, not Whites. Is that racist?

Welcome to the real world.

Most parents prefer that their daughters date men that are of a similar background, religion and race. Why? Because marriage is difficult enough without additional challenges.

Herman made a stupid, inappropriate and racist assumption to appease his players. I thought he was smarter than that, but he isn’t.

“Are we going to hire them in a position of power in our company? That's the question I have for America. You can't have it both ways.”

More BS. He is suggesting widespread racism with respect to employment. I don’t buy it. In fact, MANY companies today make a special effort to hire AA because they believe that it’s the right thing to do. And sometimes they do it to the detriment of other, often more qualified candidates.

Few companies today wouldn’t be thrilled to have an AA on their board, or at at position of responsibility in their company. But to hire someone based solely on the color of their skin is as racist as not hiring someone because of the color of the skin.

“And if you're going to cheer them and love them for three-and-a-half hours a Saturday in the fall, you better have the same feelings for them off the field, because they're there human beings. They deserve the same amount of respect and human rights that all of us do in this country when we agreed on the social contract to be a member of the United States.”

Tom, who the hell thinks that they are not getting such respect? Ex players of any color are revered, treated like royalty, and given preferential treatment all the time.

********

Herman sold out, and threw the Texas fan base under the bus. He owes us all a massive apology.

I want him gone.

Tom was trying to be the protective Daddy at the expense of his white fan base. I do not understand why he does such a thing but it is a pattern of behavior based on a little drama for effect. He needs to apologize for some of this commentary and stop kissing players and concentrate on building men, good football players and better football teams.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Do not worry about the players liking you, just make sure they respect you. I liked one of my coaches a lot, and we lost a lot of games. He was a friend to some of us. l barely new another coach years later. He was a hard a- - and never tried to appease his players. But they respected him and knew they earned their position on the practice field. We won a lot of games. Tom needs to study the great coaches of football, professional and college. I don’t think being liked was ever a concern. But they had the player's respect. It’s called leadership.

This may be conjecture on my part and I might be way off, but from what I have seen it appears that he is focused on the wrong coach-player relationships with a little too much drama. I do think he has some of the core competencies I like in a coach. The next year they play will be his pivotal year.

Make the apology!

 

[dukesteer]

There's nothing in his statement about all whites being racist.

11, this is a good exchange.

I don’t understand how anyone can objectively read this TH comment (and it’s not the only one) and not conclude the obvious insinuation, that the white Texas fans are basically racist:

“But we gonna let them date our daughter?”

What other meaning can you apply to the statement? He is unambiguously stating that we are not “gonna let them,” as in black players, date our daughters.

 

[Duck Dodgers]

Look at actions, not words.

When Heman needed to hire a new defensive coordinator after the disastrous performance in 2019, he didn't look to a former UT football player to "run his company". He hired someone with a proven track record and experience for the position to be filled, and also someone he used to work with. The exact opposite of what he got on his high horse and berated UT football fans about.

Him flapping his gums months later claiming that the rest of us need to hire UT football players to run our companies is garbage. I'm going to hire for my engineering positions an engineer, same way someone in the medical field is going to hire a doctor or nurse or micro-biologist. Don't think the UT football program has too many players graduating with those degrees.

The idea that he needed to do this to keep the players from quitting the program en mass isn't backed up by any data. Other coaches haven't had to insult their own fan base to keep players on the team. And I believe he said all this before some players claimed they were not going to practice unless their demands were met. So it's not like his insults led to harmony and focusness by the players.

Heman's going into season number 4 with about 1 good win on his record - the Sugar bowl game against Georgia. What's another good win? 2018 against USC - maybe, but they lost a bunch more games after that, taking the shine off the penny. The OU win? Nice at the time, but ultimately avenged in the same season, with the B12 championship on the line. Of the two games, which one would you have rather had UT win - first or second?

Utah game? Fun game to watch, and a nice win, but it's in a 3 or 4th division bowl. Hardly the stuff of legends. More like Al Bundy or the Ags "You remember the 2019 Alamo game? What a win!!".

2020, if there is a season, is the time to win a championship. Senior QB, OU has a new QB, new coach for Baylor (pretty jarring when that's a factor), ISU at home. Kansas is on the road, so that'll be a stretch, but Texas still has a good kicker to pull the bacon out of the fire.

Heman's done little to endear himself to fans so far - not much on the field to show for it, combined with a poor attitude to the fans. If another 1997 style season happens, he will have little good will in the bank to carry him through.

 

[Horns11]

11, this is a good exchange.

I don’t understand how anyone can objectively read this TH comment (and it’s not the only one) and not conclude the obvious insinuation, that the white Texas fans are basically racist:

“But we gonna let them date our daughter?”

What other meaning can you apply to the statement? He is unambiguously stating that we are not “gonna let them,” as in black players, date our daughters.

The meaning is that he's literally asking you if you're going to let them date your daughter without regard to the color of their skin. He goes on to explain that if you are comfortable answering those questions (in the "better have the same feelings for them off the field" comment), then cool. This is quite apparent in the context of the entire interview.

There is no unambiguous "you're NOT letting them date your daughter, therefore, RACIST!" statement unless, of course, that is your response to the question. Or if a player came forward with a personal experience that rang of that (which is probably why he even included the statement in the interview). Like I've said on 3 different threads, if that's how one answers the question and feels attacked by TH, then I don't think it's outside the realm of a hothead coach to call out what reasonable people would think is racist. It makes me think of my biracial couple friends in Allen in which the woman was basically disowned by her family when they were younger, only to have the grandparents/uncles start showing up to football games once their stud son was starting on the OL for the Eagles. They could cheer for "family" on the gridiron but not off it. That's precisely the context Herman was using, albeit for fans instead of blood relatives.

Herman wasn't calling me out; I have three daughters and am comfortable with my response to what he was getting at.