paging Accurate and any other Harmonic experts

[orangecat1]

here's the deal.

Kia Optima 2005 - mechanic said problem was harmonic balancer, replaced balancer, and 2 belts. He said there was also a problem with the timing, so he adjusted the timing, I just stared at him, didn't know what to say, the car does have 110,000 miles.

Didn't replace CMP sensor, he originally thought replacement of CMP sensor was necessary.

Had timing belt replaced at 67,000 miles. was running fine, until this problem, I thought the problem was a bad tank of gas.

So, after the nearly two week delay waiting for parts, he says he fixed it, but it still has a problem, making a noise. That's why I didn't turn around when I drove away from shop.

I made it about 6 blocks before car died. Car will be towed back to him.

Hindsight, why the h*** did he adjust the timing? Of course he had no way of knowing how well the car ran before.

Questions.

1. Is this is a difficult repair?


Why did he claim it was too difficult to find parts? I just called one Kia dealership and he found the Harmonic Balancer at Moritz Kia - across the metroplex I've got the part on hold right now.

2. Could I/should I offer to part ways with mechanic with a small settlement? I paid with a credit card, I could offer maybe what ~100$, instead of paying the bill for the harmonic balancer, about $400, take it to a better mechanic.

I really don't want to do that, but if it really is a difficult repair then I guess I have to.

hmmm, I'm wondering if he forced the timing belt to be ripped to shreds by "adjusting" the belt.

stay tuned, this should be interesting.

 

[accuratehorn]

Briefly, I don't know Kias too well, but assuming they aren't too different from Hondas and Toyotas, what sometimes happens after replacing the crank pulley, or balancer, is that the cam sensor and/or crank sensor are often bolted on in the same immediate area and must be removed to do that job. If the wires for those sensors are not carefully clipped back into their holders, the fan belts or the pulley can rub on them and cut them in two. Then the computer won't know where to fire the spark at the right time, and the car dies. Just a guess.
Then on some cars the inner part of the balancer pulley is the gear that drives the timing belt. If so, this would require setting the timing belt correctly, and checking the static timing after that is a good idea. He could have left the timing belt tensioner too loose and the belt could have slipped and come off or something like that.
Or the crank pulley bolt might not have been torqued and it fell out, all sorts of possibilities from minor to major.
The car might have had something else totally unrelated fail, also, like the ignitor or ignition switch. It does happen.
If they look at it and say they are at fault and will fix it under warranty, then you should give them the opportunity to make it right. If you have repeatedly had problems there and don't want to go back, another shop is going to charge you to fix what they (probably) should repair under warranty.
I closed my shop, BTW, and am doing bookkeeping at one shop, and will run the office at two shops while the owners are away on vacation this summer.

 

[orangecat1]

so from what I'm inferring, you think there's a good chance the timing belt itself is still okay?

That's what I'm hoping for.

 

[accuratehorn]

I will look it up on the shop's information system today-I'm going over there for a few hours. That is, I will check to see if the balancer pulley can be replaced without touching the adjustment of the timing belt.

 

[NickDanger]

Accurate,

You are really a good guy. The time you donate is noticed.

 

[I_Live_In_OK]

In reply to:

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[BigWill]

he got me through some prostate issues, and also helped me pick out new wallpaper for the guest bedroom.

 

[accuratehorn]

It's nice to be recognized as a harmonic expert for the first time since 1969.
I finally got access to my friend's shop computer. The Kia engine is basically like most Honda engines in that the balancer can be removed without disturbing the timing belt. But that is just if the outer ring of the balancer pulley came off. It could have fallen off due to the crank bolt not being tightened enough after a timing belt job, or it could have worked loose and wobbled out the keyway on the crankshaft that helps hold it, or something dire like that.
The first shop should have told you if something other than a straightforward balancer replacement occurred. The labor for that is less than one hour.
If something happened where the crank gear, a separate piece under the balancer, had to be messed with, that would require moving and resetting the timing belt.
The factory instructions said that if the timing belt crank pulley moves two notches and the cam pulleys do not move, the valves hit the pistons. So this engine, like Honda engines, is an "interference" engine. If the timing belt breaks or comes loose enough to jump time, the valves hit the pistons and this usually ruins the engine.
Since another shop told the OP he needed an engine, I suspect something went wrong with the timing belt. I don't know, but if the first shop did have to reset the timing belt, and left the tensioner loose, or the crank pulley bolt loose, it could be the reason the engine failed.
The fact the timing was set just means the static timing was set, and this wouldn't have caused a major problem. The motor would just not the correct amount of power if the base timing is off.
Did the first shop say they have to deal with the timing belt? Or did they just charge about $80-$90 labor and about $200 for parts for the pulley and maybe a fan belt or two?
Maybe the shop that did the timing belt at 67k didn't torque the crank bolt enough and it eventually worked loose. It does happen sometimes.
Really, the shop that fixed the balancer recently (I just re-read the original post) said there was a noise after they fixed the pulley-sounds fishy. Maybe they did something wrong. Maybe the timing cover got pushed into the timing belt, but who knows. I don't like to automatically blame a shop that just worked on a car, but this sounds like they might have done something wrong.
If you threatened to sue them, and if they have shop liability insurance, they might put in a used engine for you and get it paid for by the insurance.

 

[orangecat1]

thanks, accurate. I did not threaten to sue, I didn't react at all, except to ask him what he would do for me financially, and he said nothing, he needed put in a new harmonic balancer.

So far, I've initiated the dispute process for the $407 he charged me to do the balancer replacement. It's obvious to me he didn't even test drive the car, if he had, the engine would have blown on him instead of me.

The noise that the car made while I was leaving the mechanic's lot was as bad as when the car had been towed in.

obviously imo he is responsible. I can go back and check but I don't think he wrote anything on the ticket except "replace harmonic balancer".

I don't have a ticket for the 67k timing belt replacement and that shop doesn't have records for it either.

I'm ready to move on, and this time buy a Honda or Toyota. But it would be really nice to get something out of this guy, even if it is just enough to make him test drive everything before he gives keys back to customers in the future.

 

[orangecat1]

I don't remember if he said "timing belt" or just "adjust the timing".

This part

"factory instructions said that if the timing belt crank pulley moves two notches and the cam pulleys do not move, the valves hit the pistons. So this engine, like Honda engines, is an "interference" engine. If the timing belt breaks or comes loose enough to jump time, the valves hit the pistons and this usually ruins the engine."

confirms what I thought. This guy didn't have a clue, he just got lucky that he didn't test drive the car, and I was stupid enough to drive away, just because he gave me the keys after saying "I replaced the balancer".

If I had known this, I could have asked him if the crank pulley moved two notches, or I could have been smart and told him I'm not leaving until the noise is gone.

Does anybody think it would help my case if the ticket just reads " replaced balancer"?

 

[accuratehorn]

I ususally take the side of the shop owner, having been one so long, and I know sometimes things happen co-incidentally right after a shop works on a car, and the shop always gets blamed by the consumer, but...this does not look good for the shop.
I don't know why the shop is saying they would put another balancer on your car. Is the first one defective or installed incorrectly? It sounds like the new one fell off, and maybe the gear directly underneath it came loose, the crank gear which turns the timing belt. Then the valves hit the pistons and ruined the motor.
At the least, the car was making a bad noise when you picked it up. The shop should have warned you about this, and said it was unrelated to their repair, and made you sign an invoice declining further repair to the motor. Then they would probably be off the hook, unless their repair directly caused this problem (which it may well have anyway).
Just the fact that you only made it six blocks, and the part they worked on is in close proximity to the timing gear on the crankshaft makes this a bad situation for the shop.
Even if the best tech in the world worked on it, and the owner is sure it was done correctly, the fact that the car croaked a few blocks from the shop is bad for the shop. The owner knows if you sued in small claims court, you would probably win, so you should ask if he will remedy the situation by installing a used engine. If he has a responsible business, he will have shop liability insurance, which should pay the shop most or all of the claim. Actually, it would probably pay your claim if you had the work performed at another shop.
You might have to surrepticiously find out a) if the shop has insurance, and b) what company the insurance is with.