Offensive approach
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Horns11
10,000+ Posts
I mentioned on the game thread that they seem to swing at a lot of bad 2nd/3rd pitches because the umps were inconsistent with the strike zone in the tournament. I think it's a good idea to take a lot of first pitches in general. But they need to follow the "umpire paradigms" a little better.
I agree about being selective with first pitches is a good thing. The problem is we seem to have an automatic take regardless if the pitcher groves one. Hence, our hitters are always on the defensive causing them to guess and swing at bad pitches later in the count. Our hitters are only the aggressor if the pitcher falls behind. I think teams have figured this out and know they can pound the strike zone early since they know our hitters are passive early in the count.
smartin737
25+ Posts
On another thread, Buck-Horn posted our EOYear offensive stats, and noted that our strikeouts per game was seventh worst out of 292 teams.
Our ballpark dimensions eliminate a lot of our potential as a power-hitting team, but I would have expected an offense that would put the ball in play & see what happens! Lots of room in that outfield for hits to drop into.
Our ballpark dimensions eliminate a lot of our potential as a power-hitting team, but I would have expected an offense that would put the ball in play & see what happens! Lots of room in that outfield for hits to drop into.
Fire Tunnel
100+ Posts
When you are overly selective with the first pitch, the other team knows that and plays the odds of throwing a fast ball down the pipe since you plan to watch anyway. Your hitting cannot be predictable or the pitcher will usually get ahead of you.
accuratehorn
10,000+ Posts
We took more pitches when Coach Gus managed the Horns. He was college baseball's winningest coach before his record was broken. Who was it again that broke that record, I forget?
There is a difference between taking a lot of pitches and always taking the first pitch. If the pitcher has a free pitch to start an at bat, he will take advantage. A predictable hitter is a bad hitter. Kind of like the hitter that always chases the slider in the dirt. You can't argue about how inconsistent our hitting is and our approach of taking a lot of first pitches even when the pitcher groves one down the middle is one of the reasons we struggle.
accuratehorn
10,000+ Posts
We took more first pitches, more second pitches, and more third and fourth pitches under Coach Gus. We had a player break the NCAA record for walks one year. He got on with a walk, we bunted him up, sacrificed him to third and then he ran towards home and the pitcher balked.
But yeah, you're right, we will never win a game again unless every batter screws himself into the turf swinging for the fences on every pitch. It's the modern baseball way. All we need is a few more steroids and growth hormones.
But yeah, you're right, we will never win a game again unless every batter screws himself into the turf swinging for the fences on every pitch. It's the modern baseball way. All we need is a few more steroids and growth hormones.
smartin737
25+ Posts
accuratehorn,
I don't see where you get your little quips from. Who's suggesting every hitter needs to swing for the fence? In fact, who here suggested ANY preference for a power approach to offense?
Your perspective about GusBall is appreciated, but you blow it by lashing out blindly at imaginary demon fans who you somehow think are calling for LSU ball @ D-F Field. This thread is about our team's propensity to STRIKE OUT--perhaps influenced by an exaggerated tendency (or policy) to take the first pitch.
It strikes me as VERY unusual for a team that has horrible power numbers to ALSO nearly lead the NCAA in strikeouts. If you're not a power team, and you're not able to put the ball in play either..., well--you'd damn well BETTER have knockout pitching and defense (and we do
)
I don't see where you get your little quips from. Who's suggesting every hitter needs to swing for the fence? In fact, who here suggested ANY preference for a power approach to offense?
Your perspective about GusBall is appreciated, but you blow it by lashing out blindly at imaginary demon fans who you somehow think are calling for LSU ball @ D-F Field. This thread is about our team's propensity to STRIKE OUT--perhaps influenced by an exaggerated tendency (or policy) to take the first pitch.
It strikes me as VERY unusual for a team that has horrible power numbers to ALSO nearly lead the NCAA in strikeouts. If you're not a power team, and you're not able to put the ball in play either..., well--you'd damn well BETTER have knockout pitching and defense (and we do
slappinleather
100+ Posts
Bunt!!
accuratehorn
10,000+ Posts
I'm burnt out from the idiots in the stands who constantly scream out at Augie every time a player fails to get a hit, or has the temerity to bunt. That act gets old real fast. Sorry, most of you are probably not that dense.
Accurate,
I have no problem with Augie's approach. His success speaks for itself but I would like to hear from you why we struggle to hit consistently. It's not just bad luck or bad umpires. The bats can't be used as an excuse anymore. Our hitters currently have bad habits of taking hittable pitches early in counts.
I have no problem with Augie's approach. His success speaks for itself but I would like to hear from you why we struggle to hit consistently. It's not just bad luck or bad umpires. The bats can't be used as an excuse anymore. Our hitters currently have bad habits of taking hittable pitches early in counts.
orangecat1
500+ Posts
there is a difference between taking every first pitch and taking every first pitch and being a "tough out".
That is the difference, it appears, between Gus and this current approach.
Back then, every foul ball had to be returned to the field, games would last an eternity, occasionally because the ump would have to wait for the ball boy to come up with some baseballs, because we had hit so many foul balls, completely wearing out the pitcher, and the ball boy
There were foul balls hit everywhere, and that poor ball boy was tired big time); back then everybody was a tough out.
Coby just happened to be ridiculously tough. One interesting point about him, after the NCAA record setting 110 or so walks, the story is he went to Gus before the next season, asking to swing away more.
Gus agreed, and bam, just like that his walks went all of the way down to around 70, his average went up, and he was still the toughest out on the team.
That is the difference, it appears, between Gus and this current approach.
Back then, every foul ball had to be returned to the field, games would last an eternity, occasionally because the ump would have to wait for the ball boy to come up with some baseballs, because we had hit so many foul balls, completely wearing out the pitcher, and the ball boy
Coby just happened to be ridiculously tough. One interesting point about him, after the NCAA record setting 110 or so walks, the story is he went to Gus before the next season, asking to swing away more.
Gus agreed, and bam, just like that his walks went all of the way down to around 70, his average went up, and he was still the toughest out on the team.
orangecat1
500+ Posts
... and here it is, I was off a year, it looks like Coby skipped a year and then came back with the 69 walks in 1987.
Most walks
1. 112 - Kerlin, Coby – 1985 (NCAA Record)
2. 95 - Owen, Spike - 1981
3. 93 - Owen, Spike - 1980
4. 83 - Cisarik, Brian - 1988
5. 70 - Cisarik, Brian - 1987
6. 69 - Kerlin, Coby - 1987
Most walks
1. 112 - Kerlin, Coby – 1985 (NCAA Record)
2. 95 - Owen, Spike - 1981
3. 93 - Owen, Spike - 1980
4. 83 - Cisarik, Brian - 1988
5. 70 - Cisarik, Brian - 1987
6. 69 - Kerlin, Coby - 1987
accuratehorn
10,000+ Posts
Batting averages and home runs are down, way down all across college baseball. Home runs are 40% down. The bats are the reason for this. It may be it affected the established players more than the incoming freshmen.
I don't think taking first pitches is significant in UT's offensive downturn. It's just a year where we don't have a lot of great hitters. The batters today don't want to take pitches, and they swing at anything. They don't want to walk, ever, it seems.
On three and one they will swing every time, just to see another pitch. They would be taking more pitches were I coaching, not less. If you're batting .203, you better take a few pitches, maybe you can get on (gasp) base some other way than flailing away.
The coaches see the players in practice, and they know who is hitting the ball well and who isn't. The ones who aren't may need to take a few extra pitches, especially in a year dominated much more by pitching and defense than in recent previous years.
I don't think taking first pitches is significant in UT's offensive downturn. It's just a year where we don't have a lot of great hitters. The batters today don't want to take pitches, and they swing at anything. They don't want to walk, ever, it seems.
On three and one they will swing every time, just to see another pitch. They would be taking more pitches were I coaching, not less. If you're batting .203, you better take a few pitches, maybe you can get on (gasp) base some other way than flailing away.
The coaches see the players in practice, and they know who is hitting the ball well and who isn't. The ones who aren't may need to take a few extra pitches, especially in a year dominated much more by pitching and defense than in recent previous years.
orangecat1
500+ Posts
if players don't want to walk maybe Coby could come talk some sense into them.
Looking at the record book, it's been a few years since the team stole over 100 bases in a season.
Obviously Coby stole 1st base more than that by himself.
A base is a base is a base, doesn't matter how you get it on, it counts.
Looking at the record book, it's been a few years since the team stole over 100 bases in a season.
Obviously Coby stole 1st base more than that by himself.
A base is a base is a base, doesn't matter how you get it on, it counts.
I would say there is more quality pitching arms than in the past. To compare now to the 80s is not worth much.
The bunt first philosophy is a poor strategy. Augie is only coaching because he can find himself a top notch pitching coach. And if you disagree, look at his tenure here. Had he made (or been encouraged or whatever) a poor selection on pitching coach the second go round he would have been gone long ago.
The bunt first philosophy is a poor strategy. Augie is only coaching because he can find himself a top notch pitching coach. And if you disagree, look at his tenure here. Had he made (or been encouraged or whatever) a poor selection on pitching coach the second go round he would have been gone long ago.
The best "approach" to a first pitch is identifying a pitch that you are looking for, i.e., your pitch, in terms of pitch and location. Depending on each pitcher's repertoire of pitches, tendencies, etc., that pitch could be a fastball up, a fastball away, a fastball in, etc.
If you get that pitch on the first pitch, then put a good swing on it. If you don't get that pitch on the first pitch, then you lay off it. If the pitcher throws something else for a strike, then he's up 0-1 because he made a good pitch. If not, then you're up 1-0 in the count.
Baseball is a complicated game, but a sound first-pitch approach is really that simple.
If you get that pitch on the first pitch, then put a good swing on it. If you don't get that pitch on the first pitch, then you lay off it. If the pitcher throws something else for a strike, then he's up 0-1 because he made a good pitch. If not, then you're up 1-0 in the count.
Baseball is a complicated game, but a sound first-pitch approach is really that simple.
accuratehorn
10,000+ Posts
So, PFD, are you going to let every batter use that approach, disregarding their batting average, or would you make the low batting average guys be even more selective? Shouldn't that be a factor?
And saying Augie would be gone if not for the lucky selection of a good pitching coach-wow, you win some prize for that one. He was lucky at Cal State Fullerton, too, and then he was lucky at Illinois for a few years, now he got lucky again in Austin. Uncanny.
And saying Augie would be gone if not for the lucky selection of a good pitching coach-wow, you win some prize for that one. He was lucky at Cal State Fullerton, too, and then he was lucky at Illinois for a few years, now he got lucky again in Austin. Uncanny.
A hitters approach is rarely on size fits all. With that in mind, having a struggling hitter take more pitches depends on the hitter. If you have a hitter that presses when he falls behind, puts the hitter at a disadvantage if the pitcher throws a first pitch strike. Thus, the chance of success for this type of hitter decreases. On the other hand, an overly aggressive hitter can benefit from taking more pitches as long as the hitter knows he has the green light to swing at his pitch and/or a pitcher's mistake. Regardless, the hitter cannot concede the first pitch of an at bat. The pitcher has to fear throwing a hittable first pitch. Being a selective hitter is different from being a predictable hitter.
accuratehorn,
I made no statement about Augie being lucky about selecting a pitching coach. Had the successor to Hooten had Hooten's success Augie would no longer be here. If I remember correctly, we went to the CWS in Anderson's first year here with a drastically improved pitching staff. It was no coincidence.
The strengths of Augie's game is pitching and defense. Part of that pitching, I presume, is the ability to identify good pitching coaches and working well with them. We also compete to the end.
Strategically speaking, which is largely the bunting philosophy, he is weak. Strategy does not have an overwhelming impact on our season record. Pregame preparation does a lot to overcome in game strategy. Bunting in the 8th inning with a guy hitting .500+ with two on and no one out down 2 is a losing proposition. I don't know specifically what Loy's double play rate is but team-wise it is slightly over 2%. Effectively, you trade him getting on base at a 50% plus clip in favor of a 2% double play rate. I do not have the numbers, but I would assume our bunt failure rate easily exceeds the dp rate. Not only did the strategy fail from a success rate but it gave no consideration of momentum or flow of the game. The near bunt in all situations is merely a stubborn attitude as there is little statiscal support for it. It should be an entirely situational philosophy. Momentum is huge in a hitter's approach and Augie has a tendency to ignore it. He does not all the time but more so than any other coach I have seen.
Jody Conradt was a star in the 80s. Cal State Fullerton beat him head-to-head and continues to do well. That is an indication of program strength which you can certainly attribute in part to his efforts. Illinois was never going to amount to much long term so you can't blame that program's failing on him. At the same time, I do not care what he achieved there as it relates to the here and now. A person of 70 years of age is most likely not as sharp as one 30 years younger. It's just the way it is.
This program is larger than one individual. No other school has such a historical dominance over its in state schools as Texas - maybe USC from states that really matter. In reading some posts it is as if this program will fall to pieces if Augie is gone. You can certainly make the argument that he is the greatest of all time due to his wins, but that means nothing for this season.
Come this weekend, I expect we will be more aggressive offensively than we have been all year.
I made no statement about Augie being lucky about selecting a pitching coach. Had the successor to Hooten had Hooten's success Augie would no longer be here. If I remember correctly, we went to the CWS in Anderson's first year here with a drastically improved pitching staff. It was no coincidence.
The strengths of Augie's game is pitching and defense. Part of that pitching, I presume, is the ability to identify good pitching coaches and working well with them. We also compete to the end.
Strategically speaking, which is largely the bunting philosophy, he is weak. Strategy does not have an overwhelming impact on our season record. Pregame preparation does a lot to overcome in game strategy. Bunting in the 8th inning with a guy hitting .500+ with two on and no one out down 2 is a losing proposition. I don't know specifically what Loy's double play rate is but team-wise it is slightly over 2%. Effectively, you trade him getting on base at a 50% plus clip in favor of a 2% double play rate. I do not have the numbers, but I would assume our bunt failure rate easily exceeds the dp rate. Not only did the strategy fail from a success rate but it gave no consideration of momentum or flow of the game. The near bunt in all situations is merely a stubborn attitude as there is little statiscal support for it. It should be an entirely situational philosophy. Momentum is huge in a hitter's approach and Augie has a tendency to ignore it. He does not all the time but more so than any other coach I have seen.
Jody Conradt was a star in the 80s. Cal State Fullerton beat him head-to-head and continues to do well. That is an indication of program strength which you can certainly attribute in part to his efforts. Illinois was never going to amount to much long term so you can't blame that program's failing on him. At the same time, I do not care what he achieved there as it relates to the here and now. A person of 70 years of age is most likely not as sharp as one 30 years younger. It's just the way it is.
This program is larger than one individual. No other school has such a historical dominance over its in state schools as Texas - maybe USC from states that really matter. In reading some posts it is as if this program will fall to pieces if Augie is gone. You can certainly make the argument that he is the greatest of all time due to his wins, but that means nothing for this season.
Come this weekend, I expect we will be more aggressive offensively than we have been all year.
slappinleather
100+ Posts
Coach Garrido is the best college coach in the nation!!!! Bar None !!!!!!!
I hope my son gets the oppurtunity to play for him in a few more years!!!!
accuratehorn
10,000+ Posts
The anti-bunting philosophers rear their ugly heads. Bunting is a great part of baseball, and especially so in this dead bat era. Gorilla ball is dead, thank the baseball gods. Long live the bunt.
We aren't a team loaded with roided up bashers. We don't have short home run porches. We build our team around pitching and defense. We bunt.
If you want to say we should steal more, hit and run more, or bunt more, that might be worth discussing. I do think we will be more aggressive this weekend, but we'll see.
And that doddering over-the-hill coach of ours passed 1,800 victories this season, led a weak-hitting team to a top eight national seeding and a home regional. I wouldn't count Augie out quite yet.
We aren't a team loaded with roided up bashers. We don't have short home run porches. We build our team around pitching and defense. We bunt.
If you want to say we should steal more, hit and run more, or bunt more, that might be worth discussing. I do think we will be more aggressive this weekend, but we'll see.
And that doddering over-the-hill coach of ours passed 1,800 victories this season, led a weak-hitting team to a top eight national seeding and a home regional. I wouldn't count Augie out quite yet.
The strikeout stats for our team that you can get from the link above are incorrect. Those are the strikeout #'s for our pitchers (as pointed our by S102r18 in the original thread). This team has struck out much less than last year, so let's stop discussing that inaccuracy.
Pericles,
I stand by my statements. I assume you have criticized a President of the United States in one form or fashion? Yet you have the knowledge or experience necessary to question them? Therefore, I reserve my right to assert that bunting, almost without fail, is a poor decision. It has nothing to do with my ability to win a game as a coach. Baseball is a little different than most games because I believe if you threw me in there now and gave me this team with Jungman, I could win. We all could. My odds of winning in football or basketball are far, far less. Again, strategy often has far less impact than pregame preparation.
The situation last weekend with Loy bunting was not just about statistics it was about momentum and flow of the game. The hitter before and after Loy walked. The two hitters following Loy were a combined 1-14 on that particular day against that particular team. Loy was 4 for 6. You will never convince me that this particular decision was anything but a stubborness in favor of philosophy over anything else. If you are convinced, you are lying to yourself.
In part, I do believe that Augie only moderately cared about winning so his strategy is different than what it may be going forward. Given the setup, I would rather go for the CWS than win a tournament.
Five years from now when Augie is sitting at 2000 wins, it does not mean he is a better coach than he was at 500 wins. The 1800 wins just like 2000 is a culmination of years and not the hear and now. It does not mean he isn't either. I don't have that answer, but I suspect you don't either. I can promise the game has evolved quite a bit since that time. Philosophies should too.
I am not anti-bunt like the pros seem to be. I would put guys in motion more often. I would always hit away with my hottest hitter with the knowledge that the team needs a hit to tie the game. But if you put the tying run at 3rd with less than 2 outs that is a different story. It's situational.
There is no doubt our pitching and defense are what you would want. Our offensive production and philosophy need adjusting. There is not a reasonable person alive that feels more comfortable about our prospects this postseason because of our offense over pitching/defense. You can defend the coach without defending the bunting philosophy. Hell, maybe our offensive woes are Greg Davis's fault.
I have no answers for Harmon, and I don't know what it is he actually does or doesn't do for the team. Pure speculation is that he and Hooten received favorable consideration due to their contributions to the program.
I don't know if Augie is the best coach out there. Again it is unlikely that any of you guys do either. Too little coverage of the college game. You could say that anyone who wins at Oregon State or Fresno State is the best for that achievement alone.
I stand by my statements. I assume you have criticized a President of the United States in one form or fashion? Yet you have the knowledge or experience necessary to question them? Therefore, I reserve my right to assert that bunting, almost without fail, is a poor decision. It has nothing to do with my ability to win a game as a coach. Baseball is a little different than most games because I believe if you threw me in there now and gave me this team with Jungman, I could win. We all could. My odds of winning in football or basketball are far, far less. Again, strategy often has far less impact than pregame preparation.
The situation last weekend with Loy bunting was not just about statistics it was about momentum and flow of the game. The hitter before and after Loy walked. The two hitters following Loy were a combined 1-14 on that particular day against that particular team. Loy was 4 for 6. You will never convince me that this particular decision was anything but a stubborness in favor of philosophy over anything else. If you are convinced, you are lying to yourself.
In part, I do believe that Augie only moderately cared about winning so his strategy is different than what it may be going forward. Given the setup, I would rather go for the CWS than win a tournament.
Five years from now when Augie is sitting at 2000 wins, it does not mean he is a better coach than he was at 500 wins. The 1800 wins just like 2000 is a culmination of years and not the hear and now. It does not mean he isn't either. I don't have that answer, but I suspect you don't either. I can promise the game has evolved quite a bit since that time. Philosophies should too.
I am not anti-bunt like the pros seem to be. I would put guys in motion more often. I would always hit away with my hottest hitter with the knowledge that the team needs a hit to tie the game. But if you put the tying run at 3rd with less than 2 outs that is a different story. It's situational.
There is no doubt our pitching and defense are what you would want. Our offensive production and philosophy need adjusting. There is not a reasonable person alive that feels more comfortable about our prospects this postseason because of our offense over pitching/defense. You can defend the coach without defending the bunting philosophy. Hell, maybe our offensive woes are Greg Davis's fault.
I have no answers for Harmon, and I don't know what it is he actually does or doesn't do for the team. Pure speculation is that he and Hooten received favorable consideration due to their contributions to the program.
I don't know if Augie is the best coach out there. Again it is unlikely that any of you guys do either. Too little coverage of the college game. You could say that anyone who wins at Oregon State or Fresno State is the best for that achievement alone.
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