NFL Draft

VYFan said:
I'll say again, Lamb is far better than Duvernay.
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I thought you were being sarcastic...

Lamb is better than Duv like Michael Irving was better than Jerry Rice. Lamb has height on Duv and nothing else, he sure wasn't more productive. The big thing about Duv is he wasn't coached here at Texas while Lamb got far superior coaching at blOwU.

Don't be surprised to see Duv have a much more productive career than most of the guys drafted before him simply because he will actually get coaching in the NFL.

VYFan said:
Duvernay catches everything that hits his body mass, but Lamb's zone is 4 times that, even when contested.
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Did you watch many games last year? Nothing touches Duvernay's body, he catches every pass with his hands. You can blast him on rout running, and I'd agree, he wasn't coached at Texas. It's also a legit thing to say that Lamb has a bigger catch radius. But that is pretty much the only advantages Lamb had over Duv.

Duv is stronger
Duv is faster
Duv has better hands
Duv was more productive when targeted.

It means nothing what Duv did in his first 3 years since he was dealing with a freshman QB in years 1 and 2 and a raw QB in year 3. I love Sam, but the only reason Duv caught so many passes in year 4 is because Sam is so over dependent on receivers in the slot position, he has completed over 220 passes to guys in the slot over the last 2 years. I'm hoping Sam expands his ability to pass to other positions next year.
 
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I watched the recorded Holiday bowl from 2000.
Reminded of the Lamb/Duvernay debate.
Simms looked great but throw some head scratching picks.
Those of us old enough remember the classic debate, Simms or Applewhite.
Again just my opinion, but if Major plays that game Horns win.
I know, the freshman drops, but probably not in that situation if we don’t turn it over so many times.
Simms was the flashy golden arm, Major steady, solid and reliable.
Who’s better?
 
#2is#1 said:
I watched the recorded Holiday bowl from 2000.
Reminded of the Lamb/Duvernay debate.
Simms looked great but throw some head scratching picks.
Those of us old enough remember the classic debate, Simms or Applewhite.
Again just my opinion, but if Major plays that game Horns win.
I know, the freshman drops, but probably not in that situation if we don’t turn it over so many times.
Simms was the flashy golden arm, Major steady, solid and reliable.
Who’s better?
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And if Mack starts Major against CU he wins the B12 title, plays in the MNC and maybe had another title.
 
IFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFfffffffffffffffffff but he did not. oh so many ifs ands buts.....Two conference titles, in 15 years or so, maybe because he made not great decisions most of the time. Bob Stoops made more great decisions than Mack.
 
Austin_Bill said:
I thought you were being sarcastic...

Lamb is better than Duv like Michael Irving was better than Jerry Rice. Lamb has height on Duv and nothing else, he sure wasn't more productive. The big thing about Duv is he wasn't coached here at Texas while Lamb got far superior coaching at blOwU.

Don't be surprised to see Duv have a much more productive career than most of the guys drafted before him simply because he will actually get coaching in the NFL.



Did you watch many games last year? Nothing touches Duvernay's body, he catches every pass with his hands. You can blast him on rout running, and I'd agree, he wasn't coached at Texas. It's also a legit thing to say that Lamb has a bigger catch radius. But that is pretty much the only advantages Lamb had over Duv.

Duv is stronger
Duv is faster
Duv has better hands
Duv was more productive when targeted.

It means nothing what Duv did in his first 3 years since he was dealing with a freshman QB in years 1 and 2 and a raw QB in year 3. I love Sam, but the only reason Duv caught so many passes in year 4 is because Sam is so over dependent on receivers in the slot position, he has completed over 220 passes to guys in the slot over the last 2 years. I'm hoping Sam expands his ability to pass to other positions next year.
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This is just... no.

I'll give people the "Duvernay is faster" thing because of their 40 times at the Combine, but there just isn't a universe where he is preferred over Lamb. This isn't even close to "Rice vs Irvin," it's more like "Rice or Irvin versus a stocky third-rounder."

A reasonable person doesn't look at both specimens and say "well, if only this sub-6'0" guy got better coaching, HE'D be in Lamb's draft position!"

Devin has great hands. So does Lamb. There is no "Devin has better hands" argument.

There is no statistical way to twist Devin being "more productive when targeted." The fact that Lamb had 21.4 ypc can't possibly mean he was LESS productive than Duvernay when targeted.

And it's not like Lamb is magically going to skirt by on his talent alone with little-to-no-coaching once he plays in the NFL. Operating under the assumption that Duvernay's improvement rides on his WR coach improvement and offensive scheme improvement leaves nothing on the table for the chance that Lamb could possibly get good coaching in the NFL as well. They're going to play dramatically different roles/positions in the league, and while one can make the case that "Duvernay might be better at what his role entails than what Lamb will be in his role," Lamb is still going to be a better overall WR.

Duvernay was great for us in 2019. But there's no fathomable way to look at both of them as an NFL GM and say "yeah I'll go for the little guy."

#2is#1 said:
I watched the recorded Holiday bowl from 2000.
Reminded of the Lamb/Duvernay debate.
Simms looked great but throw some head scratching picks.
Those of us old enough remember the classic debate, Simms or Applewhite.
Again just my opinion, but if Major plays that game Horns win.
I know, the freshman drops, but probably not in that situation if we don’t turn it over so many times.
Simms was the flashy golden arm, Major steady, solid and reliable.
Who’s better?
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Major couldn't play in that game. He was lost for the rest of the season with a knee injury from the Tech game. Hence, also the reason Simms got the start against NMSU in Game 1 for the 2001 season and never relinquished the role.

When our success was in doubt (which it still very much was up until the Mack/GD/VY experiments from 2003-04), I still wanted the NFL caliber player leading the team. Simms' arm gave us the better chance against those slower, LB-heavy Big XII defenses of the time. I had seen enough of Applewhite to know that while he was gutsy and a future coach, he wasn't going to get it done. For every NU 1998 game, he had a 2000 Stanford. Or KSU 1999. Or Rice 1999. Or NC State 1999. I'm still kind of blown away that he was the conference offensive player of the year that year.

By 2001, we needed Simms throwing to the Big 3. That CCG was a clusterfuck, but our D didn't do our offense any favors against the run either. And we were an "everyone's hurt so we won't play defense" upset loss away against Tech in 2002 from Simms leading us to our first BCS game, too.
 
Horns11 said:
Devin has great hands. So does Lamb. There is no "Devin has better hands" argument.
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Yes there is, Devin dropped 5 passes his entire career at Texas. That is 4 years with only 5 drops. Shipley had more drops. Let that sink in for a moment. When targeted, Devin was going to catch the ball.

Horns11 said:
I'll give people the "Duvernay is faster" thing because of their 40 times at the Combine, but there just isn't a universe where he is preferred over Lamb. This isn't even close to "Rice vs Irvin," it's more like "Rice or Irvin versus a stocky third-rounder."
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Stocky? dude is light years faster, when a guy runs a 10.2 hundred meters and a 4.39 40, versus a guy who ran a 4.5 at the combine. The difference in yards per catch is 100% about the offense they were in. Put Duv in the Oklahoma offense and he is a 1st round draft pick, he gets better coaching and runs actual routes instead of 5 yard routes or 10 yard hitch. Duv and CJ deserve apologies from the University of Texas for the lack of coaching they received while in Austin. It was shameful.


Horns11 said:
And it's not like Lamb is magically going to skirt by on his talent alone with little-to-no-coaching once he plays in the NFL. Operating under the assumption that Duvernay's improvement rides on his WR coach improvement and offensive scheme improvement leaves nothing on the table for the chance that Lamb could possibly get good coaching in the NFL as well. They're going to play dramatically different roles/positions in the league, and while one can make the case that "Duvernay might be better at what his role entails than what Lamb will be in his role," Lamb is still going to be a better overall WR.
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I'll take a guy who caught 100 passes with virtually no coaching versus a guy with superior coaching and superior route running who was less productive. Lamb in the Oklahoma offense was in a far superior situation than Duv was in the Texas offense. Duv with coaching is going to make far superior jumps in his ability to produce in the NFL than a 4.5 guy will. Keep in mind, that Lamb isn't a big physical guy like CJ who can overwhelm a DB, he is a think sleek guy that relies on his rout running to get open, that isn't going to be enough in the NFL, just ask Jordan Shipley.
 
ViperHorn said:
and yet they won the same number of MNC's.
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We’ll hang your hat on that. Bob got OU in more title games and won the Big 12 constantly. And now Lincoln is winning at OU. I won’t be crowing about Herman being just as good as Lincoln until the conference titles and CFP appearances match up.
 
Austin_Bill said:
Yes there is, Devin dropped 5 passes his entire career at Texas. That is 4 years with only 5 drops. Shipley had more drops. Let that sink in for a moment. When targeted, Devin was going to catch the ball.



Stocky? dude is light years faster, when a guy runs a 10.2 hundred meters and a 4.39 40, versus a guy who ran a 4.5 at the combine. The difference in yards per catch is 100% about the offense they were in. Put Duv in the Oklahoma offense and he is a 1st round draft pick, he gets better coaching and runs actual routes instead of 5 yard routes or 10 yard hitch. Duv and CJ deserve apologies from the University of Texas for the lack of coaching they received while in Austin. It was shameful.




I'll take a guy who caught 100 passes with virtually no coaching versus a guy with superior coaching and superior route running who was less productive. Lamb in the Oklahoma offense was in a far superior situation than Duv was in the Texas offense. Duv with coaching is going to make far superior jumps in his ability to produce in the NFL than a 4.5 guy will. Keep in mind, that Lamb isn't a big physical guy like CJ who can overwhelm a DB, he is a think sleek guy that relies on his rout running to get open, that isn't going to be enough in the NFL, just ask Jordan Shipley.
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Time will tell.

I'll give you the coaching aspect. By most accounts, Mehringer was angry about not getting the FCS HC job he interviewed for and turned 2019 into his little pity party where he berated receivers. I don't know enough about OU's locker room to say that Lamb was undercoached or coached just right.

But let's run down your other claims:

You mention drops. CeeDee's catch rate was 72 percent for his entire college career. Freshman to junior year. That would be good enough for 4th in the NFL among WRs right now. I know Duvernay has good hands. This can't possibly discount Lamb's ability to bring in the ball.

One of the criticisms of Duvernay is that he's built like a RB and plays WR. He's not "light years" faster with the ball... he's faster in a line. Go watch Lamb's TD when OU tried to rally and start the comeback versus KSU. Duvernay doesn't avoid tacklers... he plows into them. That doesn't translate into NFL-style playcalling and success. If Duvernay tries to have another LSU-style game against an NFL team where he grabs a 6-yard quick hitter and rams into an NFL CB or S, he's going to be out of the league in 3 years. Devin (with your aforementioned better coaching) is going to have to channel that energy to be more like a Cole Beasley type... work underneath the play, quickly shift once he catches, etc. He didn't play like that at Texas, hence, a major reason he was picked in the 3rd round. That, and he only had success for 1 year at Texas, versus the other top candidates including Lamb.

You keep saying Lamb was less productive. This is akin to blind squirrels finding the nut. Lamb had twice as many TDs, more yards, did a better job as a returner, was higher-rated among all scouts, etc etc etc. By your own admission, Devin got the ball more in 2019 because Sam relied on the slot position more than average. I'd bet that if you compare DD's 106 catches to Lamb's 62, you'll find that Lamb had a much higher percentage of big plays, NFL routes ran, and any metric that people evaluate when making this kind of comparison. Lamb also missed their 1st game against Baylor, a team he torched in the CCG. Duvernay had 1 TD in all of our conference losses last year. He didn't show up big time like Lamb, and this is why everyone knows Lamb is the better prospect.

The Shipley comparison is off too. Lamb probably has 3 inches on Ship and wasn't hurt for 2 years of college. I guess we'll see if he suffers a career-ending knee injury like Shipley, but I'd still say Shipley was a better prospect than Duvernay, too. Just unlucky.
 
Devin has great hands. So does Lamb. There is no "Devin has better hands" argument.
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Yes there is, Devin dropped 5 passes his entire career at Texas. That is 4 years with only 5 drops
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I believe the number was 2 or 3 unforced drops, not 5. He probably has the best hands in the country. Lamb has good hands too, but not the best. Lamb is a better overall player, but not by nearly the drastic margin that's been put forth here. Duvernay not even being a Biletnikoff semifinalist was a joke that even Texas haters generally disagreed with.

Since he had one of his best games against a bunch of future NFL guys in the LSU game, I also don't buy the "Duvernay didn't show up in the big moments" argument either.

I had seen enough of Applewhite to know that while he was gutsy and a future coach, he wasn't going to get it done. For every NU 1998 game, he had a 2000 Stanford.
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I think against Stanford in 2000 he still wasn't at full strength after blowing out his knee vs Arkansas in the 1999 bowl game. Simms even started game 1 in 2000 b/c Applewhite hadn't looked ready in practice, and it was only about halfway through the 2000 season that Applewhite looked like his old self - and then about 3 games later he blew out his knee again and was out for the year.

Nearly everyone seems to forget this even though, like you pointed out, it's probably what led Mack to start Simms in 2001 and stick with him, rather than risk a second straight year with subbing an inconsistent/recovering Appplewhite in and out of the lineup depending on which guy made the most recent mistake.

And if Mack starts Major against CU he wins the B12 title, plays in the MNC and maybe had another title
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Maybe. But Major's supposed amazing miracle near-comeback has been overblown, because he came in for Chris late in the first half and immediately threw a long bomb for a TD. People forget that he played the whole second half without any offensive TD and only a pair of FG (even though we got the ball on the CU 30 once), until we were down by 9 with no timeouts and almost no time left such that it pretty much didn't matter (yeah we could have recovered an onside kick and then hit a hail mary, but the combined odds of that were astronomical).
 
Statalyzer said:
I believe the number was 2 or 3 unforced drops, not 5. He probably has the best hands in the country. Lamb has good hands too, but not the best. Lamb is a better overall player, but not by nearly the drastic margin that's been put forth here. Duvernay not even being a Biletnikoff semifinalist was a joke that even Texas haters generally disagreed with.

Since he had one of his best games against a bunch of future NFL guys in the LSU game, I also don't buy the "Duvernay didn't show up in the big moments" argument either.



I think against Stanford in 2000 he still wasn't at full strength after blowing out his knee vs Arkansas in the 1999 bowl game. Simms even started game 1 in 2000 b/c Applewhite hadn't looked ready in practice, and it was only about halfway through the 2000 season that Applewhite looked like his old self - and then about 3 games later he blew out his knee again and was out for the year.

Nearly everyone seems to forget this even though, like you pointed out, it's probably what led Mack to start Simms in 2001 and stick with him, rather than risk a second straight year with subbing an inconsistent/recovering Appplewhite in and out of the lineup depending on which guy made the most recent mistake.



Maybe. But Major's supposed amazing miracle near-comeback has been overblown, because he came in for Chris late in the first half and immediately threw a long bomb for a TD. People forget that he played the whole second half without any offensive TD and only a pair of FG (even though we got the ball on the CU 30 once), until we were down by 9 with no timeouts and almost no time left such that it pretty much didn't matter (yeah we could have recovered an onside kick and then hit a hail mary, but the combined odds of that were astronomical).
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But you overlook the other side of the equation. What happens when Applewhite starts and Texas does not have to live with those horrendous Simm’s passes right to the CU players. I will always believe that Texas wins that game if Applewhite starts because in part it was what Applewhite did not do. Texas was the better team, and from the start Simms had no bounce in his step that night.
 
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Statalyzer said:
I believe the number was 2 or 3 unforced drops, not 5. He probably has the best hands in the country. Lamb has good hands too, but not the best. Lamb is a better overall player, but not by nearly the drastic margin that's been put forth here. Duvernay not even being a Biletnikoff semifinalist was a joke that even Texas haters generally disagreed with.

Since he had one of his best games against a bunch of future NFL guys in the LSU game, I also don't buy the "Duvernay didn't show up in the big moments" argument either.



I think against Stanford in 2000 he still wasn't at full strength after blowing out his knee vs Arkansas in the 1999 bowl game. Simms even started game 1 in 2000 b/c Applewhite hadn't looked ready in practice, and it was only about halfway through the 2000 season that Applewhite looked like his old self - and then about 3 games later he blew out his knee again and was out for the year.

Nearly everyone seems to forget this even though, like you pointed out, it's probably what led Mack to start Simms in 2001 and stick with him, rather than risk a second straight year with subbing an inconsistent/recovering Appplewhite in and out of the lineup depending on which guy made the most recent mistake.



Maybe. But Major's supposed amazing miracle near-comeback has been overblown, because he came in for Chris late in the first half and immediately threw a long bomb for a TD. People forget that he played the whole second half without any offensive TD and only a pair of FG (even though we got the ball on the CU 30 once), until we were down by 9 with no timeouts and almost no time left such that it pretty much didn't matter (yeah we could have recovered an onside kick and then hit a hail mary, but the combined odds of that were astronomical).
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Not sure I read every post, but since I am staying by my opinion that Lamb is far better than Duvernay, let me say:

Duvernay has amazing hands
Duvernay showed up in big games
His strength and effort after catches was outstanding
He had a great year and should have been on the Biletnikoff list
I think he will will be in the NFL for a while
He is a very classy guy and I have been proud to be for him for four years

The full sweet spot of success for him would be Steve Smith, also short, strong, ran a 4.39 and was drafted in the 3rd round. I don’t think Devin has the magic fairy dust that Steve Smith had, but that would be the template for stardom if he does.

A more likely parallel would be Quan Cosby.
 
ViperHorn said:
Wins against "superior" (one even from the $EC) teams; Day two 3rd round draft selections; and now Cosmi at 10 in a mock draft - Texas slowing coming back - Step by step.
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True. Herman still has not yet had a draft eligible class at Texas

Still, not a good look
 
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Here is another one of those "way too early" 2021 mock drafts
This one has
Marvin Wilson #5
Walker Little #8
Baron Browning #18​
Rmbr those in-state guys? Texas football over these past few seasons would have been alot different had we landed just those 3
 
Article from The Atlantic about Texas Tech's S&C coach Dave Scholz who helped put two guys into the first round -- Jordyn Brooks (Tech) and Jordan Love (Utah St, where he used to coach)
The unique strength program that got Jordan Love and Jordyn...
EW29YywXsAYO5aP

EW29YyvXkAAOU4f
 
Statalyzer said:
I believe the number was 2 or 3 unforced drops, not 5. He probably has the best hands in the country. Lamb has good hands too, but not the best. Lamb is a better overall player, but not by nearly the drastic margin that's been put forth here. Duvernay not even being a Biletnikoff semifinalist was a joke that even Texas haters generally disagreed with.
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just my eyeball test...and, at 51, they aren't like they used to be... Lamb looks "special" in the open field. if he had rock hands, i wouldn't put him so high, but once he catches the ball, he's another level from most players, even in the nfl. i hated when he got the ball against us. i was always "oh crap."
 
X Misn Tx said:
just my eyeball test...and, at 51, they aren't like they used to be... Lamb looks "special" in the open field. if he had rock hands, i wouldn't put him so high, but once he catches the ball, he's another level from most players, even in the nfl. i hated when he got the ball against us. i was always "oh crap."
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Yep, me too. Cowboys have a great receiving corp, but can Dak get them the ball? Hope so.
 
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