ISIS kills American

[Bevo1970]

This thread was originally submitted by member = HornHuskerDad
This post was made just before going to the new 2015 platform. Post as normal after it if you wish.

HornHuskerDad
(5000+ posts)
02/10/15 02:33 PM
ISIS kills American

The Link

Kayla Mueller, 26, was captured in August 2013 while leaving a hospital in the northern Syrian city of Aleppo. She previously had been working in Turkey providing humanitarian assistance to refugees from Syria's bloody civil war

So what are we going to do about it? Seems like IS will not respond to any diplomatic measures - eradication may be the better alternative.

HHD

Bevo Incognito
(1000+ Posts)
02/10/15 02:52 PM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
So what are we going to do about it? Seems like IS will not respond to any diplomatic measures - eradication may be the better alternative






Nobody's stopping you from going over there and fighting them, HornHuskerDad.

As far as what "we" are going to do about it, I don't know about you, but I'm going to advise my friends and family not to go there. It doesn't seem safe.
Crockett
(2500+ posts)
02/10/15 03:00 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

The young woman exhibited tremendous courage, compassion, intelligence and empathy. An appropriate response should be calculated carefully. Simply lashing out in anger, say with bombing that may kill lots of innocents, would dishonor her memory.


Clean
(2500+ posts)
02/10/15 03:12 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

She was captured while leaving a hospital, sounds like work place violence to me. DO NOT try to categorize this as Islamic terrorism.

Crockett
(2500+ posts)
02/10/15 03:30 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

"Islamic" terrorist is about as helpful a descriptor as say "armed horsemen" would be for the James Gang. It's accurate but not exclusive enough to be useful.

Seattle Husker
(5000+ posts)
02/10/15 04:18 PM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
So what are we going to do about it? Seems like IS will not respond to any diplomatic measures - eradication may be the better alternative.





I agree with Crockett's post above but would like to address the question.

That's a pretty black/white option. Negotiate or kill them. Neither are possible I don't think. We tried to eradicate Al Queda and ISIS spawned from that. Clearly you can't simply ignore them either as the Taliban is a result of that. Personally, I think we need to learn to live with this threat. Surgical bombing campaigns, drone strikes, and Special Ops activities based on intelligence is the way to try an minimize the collateral damage while consistently trying to separate the extremists from the regular Muslim should be our strategy. In fact, more of the latter as I think the more barbaristic ISIS gets, the more they isolate themselves from mainstream Muslims. Pissing off the Shiite's also helps. We are better off if this is a sectarian war among Muslims rather than a Muslim vs. Western culture war.
Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/10/15 05:49 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

These guys only understand power and staying power. We have the power but frequently lack the will to fight the battle forever. That's how long the war will last with these guys. Forever. It's gone on for thousands of years and isn't going to stop in our lifetimes. The people that have staying power are dictators that have an interest in keeping their regime up and running. We can find common enemies with these guys and make it work to keep the radicals down. The problems pop up when democracy loving freedom fighters want to oust the dictator and we either support them and give the radicals a shot at taking over or back a brutal dictator over people that share our beliefs in freedom.

Crockett
(2500+ posts)
02/10/15 08:10 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

Excellent observations Larry.

 

[Bevo1970]

texas_ex2000
(2500+ posts)
02/10/15 09:44 PM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
Nobody's stopping you from going over there and fighting them, HornHuskerDad.

As far as what "we" are going to do about it, I don't know about you, but I'm going to advise my friends and family not to go there. It doesn't seem safe.



HornHuskerDad graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1968 and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. That would make him around 70 years old. You also have to pardon his use of the first person "We." It's a habit hard to shake for veterans.

I'm sure if it weren't for age restrictions and HornHuskerMom, the Colonel would be out there giving them the Thunder.

BI, can you kindly enlighten us on your service record to our country?
Mr. Deez
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 02:25 AM

Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
Excellent observations Larry.





Ditto.
Mr. Deez
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 02:30 AM

Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
HornHuskerDad graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1968 and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel.





Wow. I had no idea. Thanks for your service, HHD.
Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 05:51 AM
Re: ISIS kills American

HHD is the real deal for sure.

Sangre Naranjada
(10,000+ posts)
02/11/15 07:33 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
"Islamic" terrorist is about as helpful a descriptor as say "armed horsemen" would be for the James Gang. It's accurate but not exclusive enough to be useful.





This is true. Just say "terrorist". "Islamic" will be presumed by anybody with any common sense, and those with no common sense won't get their panties in such a twist.
Clean
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 07:54 AM
Re: ISIS kills American

According to your President, you're overreacting because of sensational reporting by the media. He described the media's criteria for reporting the news as; "If it bleeds, it leads, right?" I'll grant you that there is something to that, but he's never given a crap about the mainstream media's distortion of the news until now.

He recently described the attack in Paris on a Jewish supermarket by a radical Islamic terrorist as "random violence", not terrorism. This after he refused to even send a high level official to the Parisian anti-terror rally. That, of course, was nothing new. He called the Ft. Hood massacre in 2009 "work place violence". And, of course, he downplayed ISIS savagery by comparing it to the Crusades of a 1000 years ago.

He's an apologist for Islam and, it seems to me that he blames most of the problems in the Middle East on Israel. I believe he'd be relieved if they disappeared off the planet tomorrow. He's gone way out of his way to downplay the threat of terrorism to the United States. I hope he's right for all our sakes.

The Link

Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 09:04 AM
Re: ISIS kills American

I will agree that there have been a few times where he should have chosen a more strongly worded statement and should have done more with the Paris rally. But where the rubber meets the road is action. Its pretty damn easy to sit on a message board and criticize Obama without offering an alternative. I'm not talking about nitpicking one incident; I'm talking about his overall policy and major actions. Some of y'all are so damn convinced that he's a Muslim lover and America hater that you will twist anything he says or does to fit what you have made up your mind to be truth. What specifically would you want him to do (not say) differently?

Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 10:33 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
President Barack Obama asked Congress Wednesday to formally authorize military force against the Islamic State group, arguing the militants could pose a threat to the U.S. homeland if their violent power grab goes unchecked and urging lawmakers to "show the world we are united in our resolve to counter the threat."





Soft on terror. Loves the Muslims. Hates 'murica.
Seattle Husker
(5000+ posts)
02/11/15 11:02 AM
Re: ISIS kills American

You can add that to the fact that the US is conducting 80% of the bombing runs on ISIS, drone strikes throughout the ME and even attempted SF led rescue attempts of hostages in ISIS held territory and by recent reports have even coordinated with Syria to ensure we don't step on each others toes when combating ISIS.

Why is it so important to the far right to brand the entire 1.3B Muslim faith as sharia law advocating terrorists?

Did anyone see that some redneck in Chapel Hill decided to take matters into their own hands and execute 3 Muslim students in the last few days? It's the irrational fervor being stoked by the far right that results in crap like that.

Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 11:19 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
Did anyone see that some redneck in Chapel Hill decided to take matters into their own hands and execute 3 Muslim students in the last few days? It's the irrational fervor being stoked by the far right that results in crap like that.





Maybe. They were having issues over parking sports or something stupid so not necessarily because of religion.

 

[Bevo1970]

Seattle Husker
(5000+ posts)
02/11/15 11:44 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
Maybe. They were having issues over parking sports or something stupid so not necessarily because of religion.





You're right. I jumped to conclusions. I'll wait formal investigation findings.
zork
(10,000+ posts)
02/11/15 11:46 AM
Re: ISIS kills American

parking dispute=workplace violence

Seattle Husker
(5000+ posts)
02/11/15 11:55 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
parking dispute=workplace violence





Nah...I'll pivot that dispute to a gun ownership rights issue.

This dude shot all 3 in the head. Fortunately, he's willingly turned himself in. For the life of me I can't imagine getting angry enough over a parking spot to the point of shooting someone in the head.

OK...back to your regularly scheduled program.

What should the Obama admin do differently to combat radical islam?
Monahorns
(1000+ posts)
02/11/15 12:15 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

I don't know that religion or politics played a role in the shooting, sounds like it didn't.

But just to be certain the murderer was an atheist and a fan of MSNBC according to his facebook profile. Just sayin'

NJlonghorn
(500+ posts)
02/11/15 12:35 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

Here's an excellent article about how the U.S. and Israel are cooperating on security issues as much as ever. Obama and Netanyahu don't get along, but that doesn't mean that Obama is an enemy of Israel.

HornHuskerDad
(5000+ posts)
02/11/15 02:49 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

Thanks for the support from you for my service to the country. And, as was noted, it is difficult for a retired serviceman to separate himself from the term "we" - it is bred into us.

I appreciate the well-thought-out comments (and expected a few flames). This is not an easy answer to develop. A massive military incursion is overkill, and ignoring the reality of ISIS is an unacceptable alternative. There has to be an acceptable response somewhere between those extremes. I sincerely hope the Obama administration considers the issue carefully and comes up with an appropriate plan of action.

HHD

Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/11/15 03:08 PM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
A massive military incursion is overkill, and ignoring the reality of ISIS is an unacceptable alternative. There has to be an acceptable response somewhere between those extremes.





Absolutely. Hopefully we can provide enough support that the countries in the region who they threaten much more than us can keep them under control. Now is a good time because their support is at an all time low. The killing of the Muslim Jordanian pilot was a terrible PR move for them. There is a certain segment of the population in the ME that doesn't really care what happens to non-Muslims but was outraged that he was killed, especially in that manner.
CedarParkFan
(1000+ posts)
02/11/15 06:50 PM

Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
You're right. I jumped to conclusions. I'll wait formal investigation findings.





No prob. NBC does stuff like that all the time.
Clean
(2500+ posts)
02/12/15 07:22 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
President Barack Obama asked Congress Wednesday to formally authorize military force against the Islamic State group, arguing the militants could pose a threat to the U.S. homeland if their violent power grab goes unchecked and urging lawmakers to "show the world we are united in our resolve to counter the threat."





Riigghhtt... you really believe Obmam is going to mount a robust military campaign against ISIS? What's that old saying: fool me once...

I think he's going to mount a teeny, tiny, PC campaign against ISIS, similar to the one he mounted when Syria crossed the "red line" that BO had drawn in the sand if they were to dare to use chemical weapons.

Even Congressional Democrats say the Use of Force proposal he sent over was a muddled mess with no clear strategy. Several "experts" I seen and heard interviewed think that since ISIS is just an extension of al queda in Iraq, Obama could have used the 2001 Use of Force agreement that is still in place.

Why is Obama even going to Congress? He didn't get Congressional approval before sending in air power to take out Quadafi in Libya. We all know he skirts Congress any time he can. I think he's stalling. He doesn't want to do anything. He just wants to make a symbolic gesture and then the American public will relax and go back to worrying about Bruce Jenner's automobile accident.

 

[Bevo1970]

Seattle Husker
(5000+ posts)
02/12/15 10:42 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
Riigghhtt... you really believe Obmam is going to mount a robust military campaign against ISIS?





What is a "robust military campaign" to you?

In reply to:
Why is Obama even going to Congress? He didn't get Congressional approval before sending in air power to take out Quadafi in Libya. We all know he skirts Congress any time he can.





Wait...did you just criticize Obama for going to Congress and skirting Congress in 2 consecutive sentences?

The cliche damned if you do and damned if you don't comes to mind.
Clean
(2500+ posts)
02/12/15 12:48 PM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
What is a "robust military campaign" to you?





One that says we're going to do whatever it takes to win, including boots on the ground. In fact, I don't think it's possible to win without boots on the ground. They may not ALL have to be American, but certainly we'll have to lead, like always. You can't do it with drone strikes and air raids. We've been bombing them for months and they keep growing.

Obama's proposed use of force is just like when we were going to "attack" Syria for chemical weapons use. Obama ruled out everything before hand but using harsh language on them. He was scared sh@@less of Putin.

In reply to:
Wait...did you just criticize Obama for going to Congress and skirting Congress in 2 consecutive sentences? The cliche damned if you do and damned if you don't comes to mind.





No, I did not. As I explained, I think that he's going to Congress this time because he knows Congressional action will take time. He's stalling.
Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/12/15 01:02 PM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
One that says we're going to do whatever it takes to win, including boots on the ground. In fact, I don't think it's possible to win without boots on the ground. They may not ALL have to be American, but certainly we'll have to lead, like always. You can't do it with drone strikes and air raids. We've been bombing them for months and they keep growing.





If you were president, would you be seeking to go to a "whatever it takes war" with boots on the ground and us in the lead?
Clean
(2500+ posts)
02/12/15 07:44 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

Either you believe that ISIS is a cancer that will grow to threaten U.S. Strategic interest in the M. E. Or you don't. If you think they will menace the likes of Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, etc. you better take 'em out now by any means necessary. They estimate 50,000 foreign fighters have flocked there in the last year or so and the flood is increasing.

If,on the other hand, you think Global Warming is a bigger threat, do what Obama does best, talk a good fight and hope Jordan or Iran does the dirty work for you.

Seattle Husker
(5000+ posts)
02/13/15 10:31 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:

One that says we're going to do whatever it takes to win, including boots on the ground. In fact, I don't think it's possible to win without boots on the ground. They may not ALL have to be American, but certainly we'll have to lead, like always. You can't do it with drone strikes and air raids. We've been bombing them for months and they keep growing.





Thanks for responding...truly.

Fundamentally I don't agree that this is a longterm problem. Where we are at odds is how to deal with it. The issues as I see them are:

1. War weariness. 14 years of war resulting in >6k deaths and >50k injuries for an all volunteer army.
2. Funding. That 14 years of war has been financed. There are not enough tax revenues to pay for a prolonged ground war. I heard a statistic that the DOD spent $600k/yr per soldier in Afghanistan. It was double that for Iraq.
3. How successful have our previous "boots on the ground" efforts been? Iraq? Afghanistan? The first devolved as soon as we pulled back. I don't think anyone expects Afghanistan to turn into a thriving democracy and my bet would be that at some point the Taliban will regain power.

I also don't believe you can every truly crush an idea through use of power. It's that context that leads me to believe our only option is to contain the problem until it fizzles out on its own.
Horn6721
(10,000+ posts)
02/13/15 10:43 AM
Re: ISIS kills American

Husker
I really wish you could be right, that Islamism will fizzle out.
Nothing in the history of islam suggests there is a chance in hell of that happening.
I think only muslim nations going after the islamists, with support from Western nations will defeat them.

Jordan is a start, I hope their King will call on other nations to join him.There likely aren't many with military of any kind that would join, pretty sure Saudi Arabia won't, but even a good dhowing of 2 or 3 would show the world islam really can be moderate and exist in the 21st century.

Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/13/15 11:57 AM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
I think only muslim nations going after the islamists, with support from Western nations will defeat them.





Support with or without boots on the ground? Just trying to get where everybody stands on US military action against ISIS.
Horn6721
(10,000+ posts)
02/13/15 12:13 PM
Re: ISIS kills American

Larry
It will take support and technically I guess there will be US boot on the ground
BUT I do NOT want to send infantry or Marine units.
There would have to be people to coordinate and call airstrikes and even artillery.
Not sure how I feel about SpecOps to train others.

Your thoughts?

Larry T. Spider
(2500+ posts)
02/14/15 09:29 AM
Re: ISIS kills American

I don't pretend to have many answers on the ME. It's a messed up place and has been for forever. We all need to give up the dream that it's going to become even somewhat normal in our lifetimes. I think that we should provide support with money, air strikes, and weapons but not boots on the ground at the current time. We are in a PR war as much as a physical war and American boots on the ground makes it harder for countries like Jordan to convince people on the edge to oppose isis. They see isis and the US as both being evil and will sit on the sidelines if we get too involved. Are they idiots for believing that the us and isis are in the same ballpark? Of course, but that's the reality and a big part of why the place is so messed up. Obviously, there is a point where us boots on the ground becomes necessary because isis becoming a permanent fixture is a non-negotiable. I just prefer for us to stay in the background and provide support in hopes that they can figure it out as I think let's Muslims focus on isis as the "bad guys".

HornHuskerDad
(5000+ posts)
02/14/15 12:46 PM
Re: ISIS kills American



In reply to:
I think only muslim nations going after the islamists, with support from Western nations will defeat them.




The follow-up question that goes with this is the following - Can/will the Muslim nations make the distinction between religion and terrorism? How far will terrorism have to go before the Muslim nations say "enough" and do something about it?

And those are serious questions - and I readily admit I don't have the answer.

HHD