Interesting lawsuit in California

Mr. Deez

Mr. Deez

Beer Prophet
I'm sure the unions will make sure this lawsuit doesn't go anywhere, but it has to be one of the most interesting cases I've read about in years. Typically lawsuits like this are brought by school boards coming after the taxpayers of a state demanding more money. Essentially they're asking a judge too circumvent the Legislature's appropriation role.

Instead, we have actual students (who are the ones who really have standing - lawsuits by the districts are brought by people who have no legitimate right to even be in court) asking the court to effectively gut the tenure system and other rules that protect crappy teachers because it cheats them out of a quality education (especially black and Hispanic kids). I think they have a good point and think this car should be front page news.
 
Shouldn't they be suing their parents?

While I do not doubt that some bad teachers are a relatively small part of the problem with schools, the primary problem is parents. You show me an engaged and involved parent and there will almost always be an overachieving kid.
 
Shouldn't sending your kids to an under-performing school almost be considered neglect? Even the poorest people have the ability to move to a better school system - somewhere - anywhere, right?
 
I agree with both of you. The irresponsibility (and in the case of fathers, absence) of parents is the biggest problem not only with education but with society in general. Fix that, and almost every societal problem goes away or comes damn close.

However, to borrow Hillary Clinton's book title, "it takes a village." The presence of parental duties doesn't mitigate or eliminate the presence of the school system's duty to provide a quality education. They're required by law to do so, and they're paid extremely handsomely (compared to other nations' systems that outperform them) to do it.

In addition, the parental responsibility issue is somewhat of a diversion in the context of this lawsuit. Having good parents doesn't guarantee good teaching. It only enables the kids to learn when the good teaching is present.

Consider this quote from the article (which by the way is written by a Left-leaning journalist):

In reply to:
Click to expand...
 
the lawsuit is not attached, just a a blowsy article from a suspect source by a blowsy journalist.

Does California have a constitutionally mandated right to teachers who are not substandard? And what does substandard mean? If you have a standard, are some teachers going to be substandard by definition?

How about a situation where there is demand for 50,000 teachers who meet the standard and you can only find 45,000; is it ok to hire some substandards for a while?

And what about if you have standard teachers and kids from homes where there are no books, no magazines or papers but a wide screen television with a lot of sports coverage?

What about if the parents are both idiots with no values? What if they can afford one kid but have six? Or, as in the case of one of my recent clients, a burglar, if mom is illiterate but gives birth to 13 kids?

I get tired of people complaining about the schools and the teachers. The teacher unions try to protect their members. What a shock.

Here is a fact: a lot of kids get lost because they start out with a near insuperable problem: their parents. And the proposal that the kid move to a better school does not address a number of problems. For example, a whole lot of the kids have already done that.

Wake me up when your fancy new GPS device locates the first unicorn. I want to watch the interview on Good Morning America or one of those other brain dead tv shows. Maybe the Daily Beast will write a story about it.

"No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up."
-----------------------Joan Didion
 
Huis,

You're diverting attention away from the school system and toward the parents. Not all parents suck,and we have no reason to believe that the parents of the plaintiffs in this case suck. And frankly, most of the issues raised are legitimate problems, even if you have stellar parents.

You also bring up all sorts of technical issues and concerns that could potentially arise in a case like this, and you make good points. However, those issues can be worked out the same way the myriad of issues that arise in tort, contract, and property law disputes get worked out - on a case by case basis through the common law court system.

And yes, I expect teachers unions to protect their members. That's their job, and I respect that. However, my criticism comes when teachers unions frame their agenda as serving the interest of public education in general or schoolchildren, when in fact, they don't give two squirts of piss about public education or children. The reality is that real schoolchildren don't have an organized advocate or a direct remedy. This kind of case gives them a remedy.
 
This looks like a reincarnation of Abbot v. Burke, a series of lawsuits in New Jersey that date back to the 1980s. The NJ state constitution guarantees a "thorough and efficient" (often called "T&E") public education. Students in several poor districts (now called "Abbot Districts") argued that they were not being provided with a T&E education, and the courts agreed.

The Abbot I decision ordered the legislature to fix the problem. The Abbot II decision determined that the legislature had not fixed the problem, so the Court imposed its own remedy. That remedy changed over the years, to loud charges that the Court was "legislating from the bench". The legislature finally enacted comprehensive education-finance reform about 5 years ago, and the Courts found that legislation to be T&E. The litigation is now back, with allegations that Governor Christie undermined the T&E finding by reducing funding.

The net result of all of the above is predictable. Millions in legal fees for the lawyers, billions in tax dollars for the Abbot Districts, and no significant educational gains. I suspect that California's experience with this approach will be no different.
 
Certainly all of these groups play a part in a childs achievement, the unfortunate thing is that the public discussion is almost entirely focused on the education system and teachers and very little is said about parents and communities. In my estimation you can attribute the achievement of a child in about these proportions...
30% system (state or ISD level)
20% specific teacher
25% parents
15% community
10% peers

In my opinion, this is one valid point that educators have on their side. They are only half the equation, and they are bearing the brunt of the blame.

The unfortunate (or fortunate, depending on your circumstances) fact is that for some, they are on the low end in all categories because they live in crappy areas, with parents who don't really care or are incapable of affecting change for their children.

You certainly won't make the system work for everyone just by throwing more money at it or by making it easier to fire a teacher.

Parents are the only ones can affect each and every one of these categories by choosing where they live and where they send their kids to school.
 
I think you have this backwards.

Underfunding schools is never a solution.

Adequately funding them is a part of the solution although there are other systemic problems that can make funding somewhat less of an issue.

I would put the parents at 50% in your scenario.
 
I can look at the demographics of an area and predict their state test results very accurately without any consideration of the quality of the ISD. There are very few outliers. What does that tell you about what is most important? Culture, income level, parents education level, etc are much more important factors than anything else. What we need is an overhaul of what we expect from school so that there are clear obtainable goals and a demand that the people that are most influential (parents) are held accountable in some way.
 
In general the better teachers end their careers at better schools. Many start in poor areas but get tired of all of the issues and head out. Some really rough areas have trouble even finding enough certified teachers because the hassle isn't worth 45k. Those schools will have a 50% staff turnover every year. Schools on the other side of town will have less than 10% and those are usually people moving or retiring. Why stick around in the hood with the behavior problems and low academic kids to get the same money?

Most of the new evaluation methods that count kids test scores in the teachers evaluation will only worsen the problem. I'll stick around in the poor area I teach in until my salary depends on test scores. Then, I will make the logical financial decision to move.
 
It that time of year again where we have to start hiring for vacated or added positions. It is a real struggle to find enough highly qualified applicants if we have a lot of positions to fill. I got curious and started digging around on the subject of hardest positions to fill in the US. Not surprisingly, teachers was on every list, including forbes.

So, back to the topic of the lawsuit. Obviously the bad teachers should be fired, but that doesnt solve the problem of finding a good replacement. If we could create a system to where getting a teaching job was highly competitive, you would probably see these problems go away. How do you make people that are interested in teaching and highly qualified pull the trigger and become a teacher? How do you convince the best of the 50% that leave the profession before their 6th year to stick it out? Are you willing to pay more taxes for better salaries? If not, what else could you do to make the profession more marketable?
 
I've only got a high level overview of the new Dallas ISD plan but it seems like a good plan to me.

I would modify it slightly to make a teachers first year an apprentice year. I know there is a cost to this but I think setting a first year teacher up with a lighter schedule and an assigned mentor would be a good start. Pay the mentor based on what the first year teacher accomplishes and you have goals and scales that are aligned. It keeps that first year teacher from pulling out their hair from being overwhelmed...and quitting/moving.
 
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