Here we go again . . .

Mr. Deez

Beer Prophet
And it happens again. Sandra Bland (a black woman - shouldn't be relevant, but because of politics we know it is) is approached by the police for something minor - failure to signal on a lane change for which the officer intended to give the person a warning, not a citation and certainly not an arrest. The officer is initially calm and respectful, but the person is openly hostile, rude, and belligerent. Officer asks her to put out her cigarette. She refuses and says she can smoke in her own car. He orders her out of the car. She refuses his order, and all hell breaks lose (threats of Taser-use, physical altercation, foul language, etc.). She's subdued, but a few days later, she's dead in a jail cell. No one knows for sure how she died, but it looks like a suicide. Here's a good discussion about the traffic stop.

I tend to take the cop's side in this one. In hindsight, he may have been able to diffuse the situation as the Dallas Morning News Editorial Board suggests, but we don't live in hindsight. This isn't like the McKinney PD situation where the cop was acting like a crazy ninja the minute he showed up and started screaming and swearing at everybody. This cop was courteous to Bland basically until it was clear that she wasn't going to cooperate with him. He had the right to order her from the vehicle, and he may have had the right to instruct her to put out her cigarette. He shouldn't have threatened to Tase her, but that one error didn't make him the bad apple in this case. Things had already gone to hell.

As for her death, I'm guessing the coroner is going to rule it a suicide, but we'll never know for sure because there aren't any witnesses. I'm predicting that conspiracy theories are going to arise especially in the civil rights community, and Bland is going to be considered a martyr in their cause.

I notice that there is a very common theme in almost all of these police cases. The person being approached by the cop smack-talks, and that's when things start going to hell. The sister of Sandra Bland thinks the cop was picking on Bland and that his ego was bruised, and some are rushing to the "ego angle" on this case. Though they'll never acknowledge this, I'm starting to think that what the civil rights movement essentially wants is for suspects to be able to say whatever they want and be as insubordinate as they want with a cop and have there be no negative consequences for such conduct. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that seems to be the goal, and frankly I've never heard any of their activists pressed to offer real specifics of what changes they'd like to see in the law, which leaves me to do nothing but speculate based on their reaction to specific incidents.

Cops are professionals. They are supposed to stay calm and make reasonable efforts to diffuse tense situations. Obviously, if you get physical or threaten to get physical with a cop, it's going to end badly for you (death or if you're lucky, serious bodily injury), and most sensible people (myself included) think that's understandable at least as a general rule. However, they are generally supposed to bring peace to dangerous situations if possible. However, what should happen if the person isn't physical but is basically acting like an uncooperative ******* in the face of your courtesy as Bland was? Should the cop have to sit and take your BS no matter how extreme it gets? Should there be a line at which it becomes OK for him to arrest or otherwise get physical with you for no reason other than your mouth? Serious question.
 
He had the right to order her from the vehicle
Do they have this right with a routine traffic stop?

Several years ago my brother and I took my two boys to our old family farm outside Crockett. On the drive home that night a trooper stopped me for a license plate light bulb that was out. He was young and asked me where we had been and where we were going. My first thought was it’s none of your damn business where I’ve been or where I’m going but I didn’t want to get into a confrontation, I just wanted to get my kids home. I told him and he said to get the little bulb replaced and that was it, we were on our way.

But it lingered with me for a while. What if I had said I don’t have to answer that question, officer — do I have to answer that? I don’t think they have the right to know where we’re going. If there’s a violation we need to discuss then let’s do that. Is that right?
 
As a young child in the late 60s I recall watching news clips of protests and riots where policemen were called "pigs." Many times a policeman or policemen would take it personally, pull out the billy clubs, and beat the **** out of anyone in the crowd.

It's quite similar here. The woman was disrespectful as she no doubt believed the trooper was hassling her over something trivial, and the officer didn't have the discipline to ignore it and then made it personal.
 
I heard many on talk radio try to justify her behavior. Basically, "the police have no right to tell you what to do." Well, that is not correct. Yes, you have rights, but the officer has the right to have you put out your cigarette, step out of the car and basically ensure the situation is safe.

The more the race batters encourage people to disobey, argue and generally dislike the police the more incidences like this will occur. An investigation will occur and likely reveal she committed suicide because she was mentally unstable. The trooper likely faces reprimand from his superiors and violent threats from the baiting community. Sad, divisive nation we live in.
 
This woman was an activist herself. Based only on what I see from them in media interviews, she walks around with a chip on her shoulder for law enforcement.

I've seen the video and the cop certainly didn't escalate until he was confronted with significant attitude. At one point in time he tried to show her that he was giving her a "warning" for a failure to use her turn signal in a lane change as an attempt to deescalate. She wanted none of it and assumed she was being pulled over for DWB (Driving while black).

I believe Dionysis is correct. You don't have to answer any of their questions should you choose not to. Of course, he also understood that not answering could lead to an unwanted escalation. In the end, deciding which battle to pick is prudent. Generally speaking, I don't pick them with law enforcement ever.
 
As a 50-something white guy from a small town, I tend to be initially polite and cooperative, whether dealing with cops, teachers or strangers who arrive at the restaurant entrance the same time I do. I try to make folks comfortable and transact even unlpleasant discussions, whether a defective product or a traffic stop, in a businesslike rather than personal way. But I have a temper and when I'm treated unfairly or verbally abused my anger shows. Cops are people and like everybody else having to deal with difficult people, they not only have to deal with thorny exernal problems, but their own hormones impolite behavior from others can stimulate.

I don't believe Sandra Bland deserved to die or even get arrested. But she could have avoided danger and incarceration simply by choosing to be polite and cooperative. The cop could have done better, but he's no murderer. He's a man who didn't do well in a situation where a lot of us wouldn't do well.

Anybody know of a good book or specialized training in how to deal with the rude and narcissistic personalities that are an ever growing part of our population? I often wish I could find a way to deal with jerks where I avoid responding in kind, but don't allow myself to be a doormat either.
 
Do they have this right with a routine traffic stop?

Yes.

Several years ago my brother and I took my two boys to our old family farm outside Crockett. On the drive home that night a trooper stopped me for a license plate light bulb that was out. He was young and asked me where we had been and where we were going. My first thought was it’s none of your damn business where I’ve been or where I’m going but I didn’t want to get into a confrontation, I just wanted to get my kids home. I told him and he said to get the little bulb replaced and that was it, we were on our way.

But it lingered with me for a while. What if I had said I don’t have to answer that question, officer — do I have to answer that? I don’t think they have the right to know where we’re going. If there’s a violation we need to discuss then let’s do that. Is that right?

No, you don't have to tell him where you're going or where you came from. However, if you refuse to answer pretty basic questions, it's going to arouse suspicion. He's not going to assume you're benevolently exercising your rights. He's going to assume you're hiding something. Expect not to get the benefit of the doubt with that cop or any friendly discretion.
 
The police can order you and all the people in your car out.

You know with just a little self control and courtesy; Bland, Michael Brown, and most of the others would be alive today. A "yes sir officer. what's the problem" would go along way to diffusing any tensions. You react with hostility and you're probably going to get hostility in return. I don't know why people don't understand that.
 
It's about respect.

This was avoidable. I don't think Bland deserved arrest or to eventually die but she seems to have not respected the officer and chose not to cooperate, so that is where the problem started.

I respect laws / law enforcement and I have taught my kids to respect them too. I may not like a particular law and I may not like getting pulled over, questioned, etc. If one respects the officer, is polite, honest, cooperative and answers his or her questions, the situation will normally end well. I may get off with only a warning or I may get a dreaded ticket but I won't go to jail or die.
 
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No, you don't have to tell him where you're going or where you came from. However, if you refuse to answer pretty basic questions, it's going to arouse suspicion. He's not going to assume you're benevolently exercising your rights. He's going to assume you're hiding something. Expect not to get the benefit of the doubt with that cop or any friendly discretion.
That was my line of thinking at the moment—no need to be confrontational or suspicious, but just in principle I didn’t like him asking questions that he had no business asking. It was two grown up white guys (if that matters) and two young kids in the back seat. We had not done anything to arouse suspicion and the “violation” was about as minor as they come. It just irks me that I need to acquiesce to an unnecessary line of questioning in this situation because the officer can make my life difficult if I don’t.
I don't believe Sandra Bland deserved to die or even get arrested. But she could have avoided danger and incarceration simply by choosing to be polite and cooperative. The cop could have done better, but he's no murderer. He's a man who didn't do well in a situation where a lot of us wouldn't do well.
Well said.
 
I'd say the incident was mostly Sandra's fault, but the officer didn't do a great job. Maybe a C+, or a B- at best. I don't think he should be fired, or even disciplined in any significant way, but he does need more training.

By being rude in general, and by refusing to put out her cigarette in particular, Sandra was looking for trouble. But it wasn't a big deal and the officer should have shrugged it off. Instead, he ordered Sandra out of the car, which was within his rights but completely unnecessary.

Sandra's worst conduct came after the officer ordered her out of the car. By that time, the situation was already spiraling out of control. The officer's error was not so much how he handled the confrontation -- it was his failure to avoid the confrontation in the first place.

Police officers have rights that the rest of us don't -- pulling cars over, writing tickets, arresting people, carrying firearms, etc. Those heightened rights come with heightened responsibilities -- such as keeping a cool head and acting reasonably. If you can't take someone being a ***** and refusing to put out a cigarette, find another job.
 
I forgot one thing. At one point, Sandra claims the officer slammed her head to the ground (they are off camera so it is hard to know what really happened). She then says "I got epilepsy mother ******" and he replies "good" -- REALLY??? I don't know what to make of that comment, other than to say that it is completely unacceptable, no matter what the circumstances may be.
 
So he should just stand beside the car with his mouth shut until she finishes her cigarette and stops being a problem? Maybe he should also say, "pretty please." Easy to second guess the patrolman, but also easy to second guess the one that was shot and killed yesterday during a routine traffic stop.

It seems pretty easy to me. Obey the commands of law enforcement and you are likely on your way after a few minutes.
 
The officer's error was not so much how he handled the confrontation -- it was his failure to avoid the confrontation in the first place
Good point!

I read the transcript. The officer noticed her irritation and wittingly or unwittingly chose to stoke it. Once the confrontation started, the officer had to "win" and Bland was not going to be a pushover. When the adrenalin is released, both seemed to be reasoning with what I call "The Angry German Shepherd" brain.

Kinda worrisome that just a few word choices by two folks not at their best ended up creating a life-altering heap of trouble for both.
 
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So he should just stand beside the car with his mouth shut until she finishes her cigarette and stops being a problem? Maybe he should also say, "pretty please." Easy to second guess the patrolman, but also easy to second guess the one that was shot and killed yesterday during a routine traffic stop.

It seems pretty easy to me. Obey the commands of law enforcement and you are likely on your way after a few minutes.

I think we are all saying that Sandra should have been cooperative. With that said, this officer is paid and trained to keep his calm when others around him do not. In this case, he contributed to the escalation after prompted by this woman. That was his mistake.
 
So he should just stand beside the car with his mouth shut until she finishes her cigarette and stops being a problem?

If he had done that, I would've given him an A-, but even that would have been too much. After he handed her the warning, he should have walked away. There was nothing left for him to do, so why stand there?

Sometimes people are rude and disrespectful. Get used to it.
 
Reading the transcript, my guess is that he saw the out-of-state plates once behind her and went through the standard basic questions that get asked of anyone clearly not from the area (ANY area, no matter the color of driver- I've been asked the same thing in the middle of nowhere on stops before).

Curious whether she lit the cigarette before or after being pulled over...if after, that would ALSO be cues of potential improper activity being covered up, no matter whether weed or other substance. I've not listened to the full audio version so do not know if the license return from the dispatcher discussed the past criminal history (which is quite plentiful in Texas and Illinois, much of it substance-related, including a deferred for the paraphernalia charge that is only discussed in the media as 'dismissed.'

My interest IS piqued by the fact that she apparently had two different driver's licenses, one from Texas and one from Illinois...curiously, that is not being mentioned, especially given that she owed more than $7K to the State of Illinois in fines and fees related to her DL.

AND...given what we know now about her admission to prior suicide attempts, it is entirely possible that she realized after a weekend in jail that a felony charge was apt to put the kibosh on the job offer. Few employers are going to adopt a 'wait and see' attitude when a new employee is charged with a felony just a few days before they are supposed to begin working.

The whole scenario clearly got out of hand, but if she doesn't get an attitude, then it NEVER escalates the way it did...NEVER.
 
As far as resisting arrest confrontations go - black, white, asian, hispanic, man or woman what have you, that's generally what they look like. There's wrestling and the suspect always complains that the officer is breaking their arm. Just watch COPs and Alaska State Troopers.

The officer was completely in his right to ask her to put out her cigarette and to step out of the vehicle. It could have ended there until she decided to say she wasn't going to comply then resist/kick-back, etc.

Should the officer have handled it "better?" I can guess one could criticize that he should have done this or that. But one could also argue that he was very courteous when he initially approached her, gave her multiple chances, he has a job to do, and shouldn't have to capitulate to someone not following lawful orders when given muliple chances to do so. Not complying with a lawful order (such as stepping out of your car) is a sure fire way to escalate a situation.

If my parents knew of me smoking in the face of and talking like that to a police officer, I'd be lucky to ever have a drivers license.
 
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Was she intoxicated or on drugs? Was she a wanted felon out of Illinois? Officers I know are looking for other potential issues on traffic stops. The fact she refused to put out her cigarette could be a sign she was hiding the smell of something else. What if he just let her go because she was mad and she ran over a kid a few miles down the street because she was intoxicated?

Yesterday a LA cop was killed during a stop. Every time an officer pulls someone over, it could be their last day on the job. I just lean towards giving the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement.
 
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Was she intoxicated or on drugs? Was she a wanted felon out of Illinois? Officers I know are looking for other potential issues on traffic stops. The fact she refused to put out her cigarette could be a sign she was hiding the smell of something else. What if he just let her go because she was mad and she ran over a kid a few miles down the street because she was intoxicated?

Yesterday a LA cop was killed during a stop. Every time an officer pulls someone over, it could be their last day on the job. I just lean towards giving the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement.

Based upon the autopsy report they just discussed, she had marijuana in her system at a substantial level. In light of that, the discussions of pot in the system become even more significant as a contributing factor to the suicide. Of course, the SJW's are already out in force ignoring the impact of that finding (as well as the evidence of recent cutting on herself) claiming that it has no bearing at all on the situation.

As the tweet from the Texas District and County Attorney's Association so aptly noted this morning...we are reminded YET AGAIN why the courts prefer to wait for a complete investigation instead of rushing to judgment based upon fragments of information. Did the Trooper act professionally? Not really. Did his actions CAUSE the death of Bland? No. Is her death a murder, the SJW's are claiming? Again, NO!

If anything, this perfect storm of events should move towards a focus on treatment for the mentally disturbed, since mental instability seems to be far more central to the death...
 
New
Was she intoxicated or on drugs? Was she a wanted felon out of Illinois? Officers I know are looking for other potential issues on traffic stops.

No question a lot of good arrests that stop crime sprees or apprehend drug dealers/abusers start with a routine traffic stop. Computers and dispatchers check for warrants and stolen vehicles. Officers look and sniff for alcohol on the breath, marijuna, meth pipes, cash and contraband.
 
Was she intoxicated or on drugs? Was she a wanted felon out of Illinois? Officers I know are looking for other potential issues on traffic stops. The fact she refused to put out her cigarette could be a sign she was hiding the smell of something else.

If he had probable cause for any of the things you mentioned, then my prior statements are out the window.

What if he just let her [go] because she was mad and she ran over a kid a few miles down the street because she was intoxicated?

If he had probable cause to think she was intoxicated and let her go, he might have some slight amount of culpability (although not nearly as much as the drunk driver herself). But he can't be held responsible for failing to act in the absence of probable cause.

Yesterday a LA cop was killed during a stop. Every time an officer pulls someone over, it could be their last day on the job. I just lean towards giving the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement.

In essence, you are saying "Police officers have a dangerous job, so I give them the benefit of the doubt when they do things that make their job even more dangerous." This makes no sense. In light of the inherent danger that the job poses, I'm inclined to go light on cops who err on the side of avoiding conflict, not those who escalate it unnecessarily.
 
Of course, the SJW's are already out in force
I have to admit, I had to google "SJW". Social Justice Warrior? Now, I'm not defending anyone's actions or motives - but somehow I feel like it sucks to be in a time where 'social justice' is part of an insult...
 
I have to admit, I had to google "SJW". Social Justice Warrior? Now, I'm not defending anyone's actions or motives - but somehow I feel like it sucks to be in a time where 'social justice' is part of an insult...

Don't feel bad. I had to look it up too. Thank goodness for google. If it didn't exist, we wouldn't be able understand each other, even though we all supposedly speak the same language.
 
Apparently, Bland did not have the advantage of "The Talk" most white kids get from their parents about how to conduct themselves when pulled over by an officer of the law. Too bad.
 
I have to admit, I had to google "SJW". Social Justice Warrior? Now, I'm not defending anyone's actions or motives - but somehow I feel like it sucks to be in a time where 'social justice' is part of an insult...

Don't really disagree with you there...but the other sad reality is that social media has led to a substantial increase in the 'let's all point fingers even though we don't really know all of the pieces of the puzzle and then as the pieces come in that we don't like, we will ignore them or criticize them as not being relevant.'

Just this morning, I had crap coming across my twitter feed blaming everything on the Waller PD when they neither made the traffic stop nor housed Bland. Then they wanted to blame the SO after being corrected and claim that jail staff caused her extreme emotional distress by having locked her up...meanwhile continuing to ALSO ignore the tox screen and more than 30 cuts on her wrist in various states of healing.
 
Apparently, Bland did not have the advantage of "The Talk" most white kids get from their parents about how to conduct themselves when pulled over by an officer of the law. Too bad.

Her Illinois record in addition to the Harris County history suggest she missed out on MANY talks regarding responsibilities that come with being an adult.
 

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