Greg Lemond is Officially on my Hate List
- Thread starter Bevo Incognito
- Start date
The Link
The guy was my hero. His battle with Hinault in the 1986 Tour de France not only brought me into cycling at a young age, but started a spark which has contined to this day, cluminating in a bike trip I just took in France (including cycling up Alpe d'Huez).
He is a bitter, paranoid man. Does he have his reasons? Perhaps. I don't know how clean he really was, but I think he was pretty clean and was very quickly surpassed by lesser athletes as EPO hit the ranks at the end of his career.
He's never liked LA, and perhaps he sees his wins and his denials of doping as the biggest sporting fraud of all time. It consumes him. Perhaps he's right.
Myself, I think that LA probably raced dirty, and won against other dirtier competetors. Now he sees a clean field, and perhaps wonders if he can both return, race and win clean, and prove to the world that he is clean.
He's retained Catlin as his personal drug tester- this may look as if he's bought off the police but Catlin in unimpechable. He brought down Balco, various Olympians, and testified against Floyd Landis. His life mission is to rid sport of doping. LA is going to post all his numbers on the web, be subject to anything Catlin wants to test for, and will bank his samples for testing 50 years from now if someone wants. I think that if he wins now, and Catlin says he's clean, he's clean. That will be good enough for me.
But Lemond is trying a different tack, saying that you can't test for everything - or detect it - and it's power meter readings and the like which show if you're doping. That's an impossible argument to follow. I knew Lemond would interject himself in this somehow, but this smacks of utter despiration. I too wish he'd just shut up.
The guy was my hero. His battle with Hinault in the 1986 Tour de France not only brought me into cycling at a young age, but started a spark which has contined to this day, cluminating in a bike trip I just took in France (including cycling up Alpe d'Huez).
He is a bitter, paranoid man. Does he have his reasons? Perhaps. I don't know how clean he really was, but I think he was pretty clean and was very quickly surpassed by lesser athletes as EPO hit the ranks at the end of his career.
He's never liked LA, and perhaps he sees his wins and his denials of doping as the biggest sporting fraud of all time. It consumes him. Perhaps he's right.
Myself, I think that LA probably raced dirty, and won against other dirtier competetors. Now he sees a clean field, and perhaps wonders if he can both return, race and win clean, and prove to the world that he is clean.
He's retained Catlin as his personal drug tester- this may look as if he's bought off the police but Catlin in unimpechable. He brought down Balco, various Olympians, and testified against Floyd Landis. His life mission is to rid sport of doping. LA is going to post all his numbers on the web, be subject to anything Catlin wants to test for, and will bank his samples for testing 50 years from now if someone wants. I think that if he wins now, and Catlin says he's clean, he's clean. That will be good enough for me.
But Lemond is trying a different tack, saying that you can't test for everything - or detect it - and it's power meter readings and the like which show if you're doping. That's an impossible argument to follow. I knew Lemond would interject himself in this somehow, but this smacks of utter despiration. I too wish he'd just shut up.
Knoxville-Horn
1,000+ Posts
Yeah. His "Mark Spitz" routine is beyond lame.
Can someone tell me the point of bringing this up at this point? Lance has been tested. He's never tested positive. Therefore, any amount of whining about the past is irrelevant. It just looks desperate and bitter.
Can someone tell me the point of bringing this up at this point? Lance has been tested. He's never tested positive. Therefore, any amount of whining about the past is irrelevant. It just looks desperate and bitter.
notanative
1,000+ Posts
H
HuskerNKingwood
Guest
To me, Lance Armstrong is nothing less than one of the best athletes of our time. For Greg LeMond to go after this man is irresponsible, idiotic, and ignorant.
Shame on you, Greg LeMond.
Shame on you, Greg LeMond.
WhiteH2O Horn
250+ Posts
Like txzen, Lemond was a hero of mine for a long time. I was already a cycling fan before he won the Tour the first time, but that just made him larger than life to me. However, his act over the last few years has become progressively more tired. Sure, EPO fueled riders certainly and unfortunately hastened the end of his on-the-bike relevance and livelihood, but it would have served him better to have not gone the route of trying so hard to tear down Armstrong's legacy.
Even with all of the other doping busts in the last few years, it surprises me at how many people feel that Lance most likely raced dirty just to keep up with all the other cheats. I assume that people who believe Armstrong doped in some fashion will consider me naive, but I think it is worth remembering just exactly what sparked those 7 incredible Tour wins.
Here is a guy who stared down death and was ready to quit racing altogether. When he beat the cancer and experienced his revelation/rejuvenation while training in the mountains of North Carolina with Carmichael & Bob Roll, I have a VERY hard time believing that Armstrong was stupid enough to think, "hey, I just had brain surgery, endured a few agonizing rounds of chemo, and am damned fortunate to be breathing, I wonder what advantages I can gain by taking EPO and taking a shot at the Tour de France?" It has never made any sense. I know that there are people out there who are all too willing to put their bodies at risk in the long term for short term gain, but after the cancer, Lance became FANATICAL about what went into his body, even to the point of having his portions meticulously weighed and actually hiring his own chef to travel with the team. He was terrified of the cancer returning. Do people really believe that this guy is not thankful enough to have his life and that he is so shamelessly glory driven as to risk health problems & humiliation by taking EPO or some other type of blood doping? (then invest all the time, effort, & cash to keep it a secret)
I'm not exactly unbiased on this deal because I know the guy a little bit. About as good as anyone not in the "inner circle," anyway. I've been very reluctant in the past to mention this due to the disdain that name dropping brings. (there are a few posters on this board who have known that Lance and I share quite a few common friends/acquaintances/associates/whatever in the respective circles we run in) I only bring this up because I've been wanting to share something that Armstrong said back in 2000.
I was lucky enough to be part of a group of guys chasing Lance around the Barton Creek Greenbelt for a few hours while he trained for a mountain bike race later that "off season." (this was after his second Tour win) We were taking a water break at the top of a rocky, half-mile climb that tough guy himself made us climb and descend twice before resting after the third trip up. Anyway, while we were enjoying our water and the view from the "Hill of Life," we started talking about the pro peloton in general, then the Tour. Someone said something to the effect of,"dude, does it bother you that some of your rivals may try to dope to beat you in France next year?" He said, " **** 'em, let 'em dope, it won't change the fact that I'm going to beat them. Again." He wasn't laughing when he said that, and during a few hours of major ****-talking and taunting while riding, this wasn't just bravado. Although he'll probably never say it during a post-stage interview or to the media in general, I personally believe that the dude enjoyed beating dirty riders as a way of mocking them and crushing their spirit. They had to realize that if they couldn't beat him doped and IF Armstrong were clean, then they're not even close to being in his league.
I don't believe in absolutes, so I won't say that it is impossible that Armstrong cheated to win any of his Tours. Considering the circumstances surrounding the man's life and what I have seen & heard first hand, I find it incredibly unlikely. And back to the original point of this thread, I'm saddened by the choices Greg Lemond has made. If he were more gracious to Armstrong and more accepting of the reality in regard to how his own incredible legacy compares to that of Armstrong's, then he would be much more the beloved American cycling icon that he was rather than the pathetic embarrassment he's become.
Even with all of the other doping busts in the last few years, it surprises me at how many people feel that Lance most likely raced dirty just to keep up with all the other cheats. I assume that people who believe Armstrong doped in some fashion will consider me naive, but I think it is worth remembering just exactly what sparked those 7 incredible Tour wins.
Here is a guy who stared down death and was ready to quit racing altogether. When he beat the cancer and experienced his revelation/rejuvenation while training in the mountains of North Carolina with Carmichael & Bob Roll, I have a VERY hard time believing that Armstrong was stupid enough to think, "hey, I just had brain surgery, endured a few agonizing rounds of chemo, and am damned fortunate to be breathing, I wonder what advantages I can gain by taking EPO and taking a shot at the Tour de France?" It has never made any sense. I know that there are people out there who are all too willing to put their bodies at risk in the long term for short term gain, but after the cancer, Lance became FANATICAL about what went into his body, even to the point of having his portions meticulously weighed and actually hiring his own chef to travel with the team. He was terrified of the cancer returning. Do people really believe that this guy is not thankful enough to have his life and that he is so shamelessly glory driven as to risk health problems & humiliation by taking EPO or some other type of blood doping? (then invest all the time, effort, & cash to keep it a secret)
I'm not exactly unbiased on this deal because I know the guy a little bit. About as good as anyone not in the "inner circle," anyway. I've been very reluctant in the past to mention this due to the disdain that name dropping brings. (there are a few posters on this board who have known that Lance and I share quite a few common friends/acquaintances/associates/whatever in the respective circles we run in) I only bring this up because I've been wanting to share something that Armstrong said back in 2000.
I was lucky enough to be part of a group of guys chasing Lance around the Barton Creek Greenbelt for a few hours while he trained for a mountain bike race later that "off season." (this was after his second Tour win) We were taking a water break at the top of a rocky, half-mile climb that tough guy himself made us climb and descend twice before resting after the third trip up. Anyway, while we were enjoying our water and the view from the "Hill of Life," we started talking about the pro peloton in general, then the Tour. Someone said something to the effect of,"dude, does it bother you that some of your rivals may try to dope to beat you in France next year?" He said, " **** 'em, let 'em dope, it won't change the fact that I'm going to beat them. Again." He wasn't laughing when he said that, and during a few hours of major ****-talking and taunting while riding, this wasn't just bravado. Although he'll probably never say it during a post-stage interview or to the media in general, I personally believe that the dude enjoyed beating dirty riders as a way of mocking them and crushing their spirit. They had to realize that if they couldn't beat him doped and IF Armstrong were clean, then they're not even close to being in his league.
I don't believe in absolutes, so I won't say that it is impossible that Armstrong cheated to win any of his Tours. Considering the circumstances surrounding the man's life and what I have seen & heard first hand, I find it incredibly unlikely. And back to the original point of this thread, I'm saddened by the choices Greg Lemond has made. If he were more gracious to Armstrong and more accepting of the reality in regard to how his own incredible legacy compares to that of Armstrong's, then he would be much more the beloved American cycling icon that he was rather than the pathetic embarrassment he's become.
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
Great input and great writing.
GemStateJim
2,500+ Posts
Marion Jones never tested positive, either.
Whitewater, your post really affirms what I've always thought and always told the doubters when it comes to LA. Sometimes (rarely) someone comes along who really is "that" special in their given field. When someone like that applies themselves the way Lance, his coaches, trainers and teammates applied themselves, well, the other guys can cheat and steal and lie, or whatever, but it just don't make a ****. Some people can't accept that.
OrangeBlooded
500+ Posts
napolean, can you prove your assertion?
MilkmanDan
1,000+ Posts
Knoxville-Horn
1,000+ Posts
There's probably no need to rehash the LA doping thing - he never tested positive (except the retrospective 1999 test on those 'A' samples, yadax3), but I can't believe his team was clean. We've never seen anything like the Blue Train which ushered him into the mountains, 5-6 guys strong day in and day out. Again, against people we know doped. It doesn't happen like that anymore. Why? Dunno, but the fact that so many of those guys on that train got busted for dope when they moved on may be some hint. It's also interesting to see the fading performance of many recent superstars in the age of better testing. Whither Cunego, Valverde, ...heck, Popvich? He was thought to be the next Merckx who won everything as a newcomer and led LA by the hand through all of the mountains while wearing the white jersey, but he's suddenly has no legs. Just retired. Hmm.
But I agree - you believe or don't believe. And I don't need to take in to account what people outside of the USA think. After seeing what's happened in cycling the past few years, I no longer believe in fairy tales. I think LA reconned, focused, and trained for the TdF like no other, and he has a rare talent. Was he really as good a climber as Pantani? Pantani, dirty as all hell, with a perfect climber's body? No.
Back to the blood - there is a serious hit to your performance in donating blood...which could how why Tyler found his 'vanishing twin'... but clearly many (Basso, Ullrich, Hamilton, etc) found a way to do it. The records from Fuentes's file on Hamilton:
But I agree - you believe or don't believe. And I don't need to take in to account what people outside of the USA think. After seeing what's happened in cycling the past few years, I no longer believe in fairy tales. I think LA reconned, focused, and trained for the TdF like no other, and he has a rare talent. Was he really as good a climber as Pantani? Pantani, dirty as all hell, with a perfect climber's body? No.
Back to the blood - there is a serious hit to your performance in donating blood...which could how why Tyler found his 'vanishing twin'... but clearly many (Basso, Ullrich, Hamilton, etc) found a way to do it. The records from Fuentes's file on Hamilton:
MilkmanDan
1,000+ Posts
txzen, points taken on the mechanics and history of autologous blood doping.
The page I was interested in from "Exercise Physiology" about freezing the packed RBC is missing, unfortunately. Even if you are going about it that way, you still have to pass the 50 hematocrit test like everyone else. Which is different than not cheating, of course.
The page I was interested in from "Exercise Physiology" about freezing the packed RBC is missing, unfortunately. Even if you are going about it that way, you still have to pass the 50 hematocrit test like everyone else. Which is different than not cheating, of course.
I was really shocked at the (proported) training diary of Hamilton. It really was a program, and quite a good portion of it was designed to get the hematocrit up high enough to allow you to donate and not be affected in your training. The nasty coctail of drugs is also eye-opening. These guys were willing to do anything to win.
But it's a pretty sophisticated process, even if they don't feeze it. You have to collect aseptically, store, transfuse...it's not something an athlete is going to do alone. That too is mind-boggling.
Which still brings to mind the strage story of Hamilton (and Perez) - two guys who appear to have doped with someone else's blood. Was it an accident? Did they get their blood swtiched (if so, they're damn lucky they didn't die - guess they were a match). Maybe it was just a contamination from the crude blood lab Fuentes set up. If so, that's even more irresponsible for all involved. Again, the guys who are willing to dope do not think much about their physical health - no one in their right mind who was would subject themselves to this.
Back on Lance's 1999 samples, this story is not over.
The Link
But it's a pretty sophisticated process, even if they don't feeze it. You have to collect aseptically, store, transfuse...it's not something an athlete is going to do alone. That too is mind-boggling.
Which still brings to mind the strage story of Hamilton (and Perez) - two guys who appear to have doped with someone else's blood. Was it an accident? Did they get their blood swtiched (if so, they're damn lucky they didn't die - guess they were a match). Maybe it was just a contamination from the crude blood lab Fuentes set up. If so, that's even more irresponsible for all involved. Again, the guys who are willing to dope do not think much about their physical health - no one in their right mind who was would subject themselves to this.
Back on Lance's 1999 samples, this story is not over.
The Link
I cant defend cycling anymore, its scarry how dirty all the "good" ones have turned out to be. And I think its probably safe to say that from 2002 onward, Lance was probably clean- at that point, the authorities started testing for everything known, and started saving more samples due to all the rumors about the designer drugs.
my only hope for Armstrong is this one fact:
There is no physical way Armstrong could have "doped" by himself.
*IF* he was using a banned substance, there has to be at least 1 doctor, and probably 1 technician who helped out. AT LEAST 2 OTHER PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO BE INVOLVED.
I dont care how much those guys would have been paid. Theres almost no chance that 10 years have gone by without at least one of them getting pissed/ snubbed by Armstrong and wanting to rat him out.
Heck, if he did pay someone off, whats to stop that person from going to Lance every other week and demand another $100k , or $500k to keep quiet that week?
Anyone who helped Lance would literally have him over a barrell. Lance stops paying, or the other guy just wants to make the news, and the story breaks, HARD.
Yet that hasnt happened. And I realize loyalty might make a difference, at some point everyone close to him has to have been offered MILLIONS by the French newspapers alone to come out and say Lance doped, but it's never happened.
I want to believe... but Hamilton, Durden, Ulrich, and all the others that were his main competition have all been shown to be cheaters...
my only hope for Armstrong is this one fact:
There is no physical way Armstrong could have "doped" by himself.
*IF* he was using a banned substance, there has to be at least 1 doctor, and probably 1 technician who helped out. AT LEAST 2 OTHER PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO BE INVOLVED.
I dont care how much those guys would have been paid. Theres almost no chance that 10 years have gone by without at least one of them getting pissed/ snubbed by Armstrong and wanting to rat him out.
Heck, if he did pay someone off, whats to stop that person from going to Lance every other week and demand another $100k , or $500k to keep quiet that week?
Anyone who helped Lance would literally have him over a barrell. Lance stops paying, or the other guy just wants to make the news, and the story breaks, HARD.
Yet that hasnt happened. And I realize loyalty might make a difference, at some point everyone close to him has to have been offered MILLIONS by the French newspapers alone to come out and say Lance doped, but it's never happened.
I want to believe... but Hamilton, Durden, Ulrich, and all the others that were his main competition have all been shown to be cheaters...
GemStateJim
2,500+ Posts
Buck Naked
25+ Posts
Greg Lemond today is worthy of pity, and not much else. He jumped in with the first question at the press conference, and then wouldn’t shut up. As Elden Nelson, who was present at the conference said in his blog, “He tried to turn this conference into an ad-hoc trial / referendum. It was stupid and obnoxious…”
Trek Bicycles, who manufactured and marketed bikes under his name, informed him last winter that they wouldn’t be renewing their agreement with him when it expired due to his erratic behavior. I’m being kind in using the word erratic. He responded by filing suit against them in March, they responded by suing him and immediately discontinuing his line.
In a complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Madison, Trek said LeMond had violated his agreement with the company in a couple of ways. First, the firm said, he improperly bought $2.5 million worth of LeMond-brand bikes from Trek at an employee discount, then resold many outside the Trek dealer network. The bulk of Trek's complaint, however, involves accusations that LeMond has hurt the firm - including its sales of LeMond-brand bikes - by publicly disparaging Armstrong.
According to the Trek complaint, LeMond previously assured the company that he would stop making disparaging remarks about Armstrong but reneged on his word. Last fall, according to the complaint, LeMond told a European magazine that his past comments about Armstrong had landed him in "big trouble with Trek."
Those remarks, according to the complaint, prompted a Trek European executive who was trying to promote LeMond's bikes to say: "The guy is a legend and I have the utmost respect for what he achieved in the sport but from a commercial perspective he's an idiot.
Trek Bicycles, who manufactured and marketed bikes under his name, informed him last winter that they wouldn’t be renewing their agreement with him when it expired due to his erratic behavior. I’m being kind in using the word erratic. He responded by filing suit against them in March, they responded by suing him and immediately discontinuing his line.
In a complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Madison, Trek said LeMond had violated his agreement with the company in a couple of ways. First, the firm said, he improperly bought $2.5 million worth of LeMond-brand bikes from Trek at an employee discount, then resold many outside the Trek dealer network. The bulk of Trek's complaint, however, involves accusations that LeMond has hurt the firm - including its sales of LeMond-brand bikes - by publicly disparaging Armstrong.
According to the Trek complaint, LeMond previously assured the company that he would stop making disparaging remarks about Armstrong but reneged on his word. Last fall, according to the complaint, LeMond told a European magazine that his past comments about Armstrong had landed him in "big trouble with Trek."
Those remarks, according to the complaint, prompted a Trek European executive who was trying to promote LeMond's bikes to say: "The guy is a legend and I have the utmost respect for what he achieved in the sport but from a commercial perspective he's an idiot.
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
I agree with Lemond being an idiot, but I want to point out a flaw in the argument
Buck Naked
25+ Posts
Ok, I dispise Lemond, but I'm stuck on the purchase too.
For face value, if he bought $2.5 million of $2800 bikes, that'd be about 900 bikes - without the 'employee discount'. So he likely bought more. Many more. Again, what the heck did Trek think he was going to do with the bikes? Make an art piece from them?
I think Lemond was upset that his brand wasn't being as highlighted as the Madrones, and got them to agree to some deal where he'd buy them and market/sell them himself. What they didn't expect was that he'd discount them at 50%.
For face value, if he bought $2.5 million of $2800 bikes, that'd be about 900 bikes - without the 'employee discount'. So he likely bought more. Many more. Again, what the heck did Trek think he was going to do with the bikes? Make an art piece from them?
I think Lemond was upset that his brand wasn't being as highlighted as the Madrones, and got them to agree to some deal where he'd buy them and market/sell them himself. What they didn't expect was that he'd discount them at 50%.
Weekly Prediction Contest
* Predict HORNS-AGGIES *
Sat, Nov 30 • 6:30 PM on ABC
Recent Threads
-
2024 Volleyball
- Started by Ellis21d
- Replies: 497
- Volleyball
-
Cross Country
- Started by UTexRulz23
- Replies: 1
- Track
-
2025 Recruiting
- Started by 10SNE1?
- Replies: 41
- Volleyball
Prediction Results Threads
