Germany - What up?

[mchammer]

 

[mchammer]

 

[Garmel]

A good example how socialism can poison a society's culture.

 

[Mr. Deez]

It's hard to argue that they're wrong. You only have the ability to determine success in your own life if you have freedom (economic and political). Germans have some political freedom, (though they're losing it in the name of political correctness). However, their economy is so tightly regulated and heavily taxed that it's hard to argue that they have much economic freedom.

 

[Joe Fan]

I look forward to the day Germany once again begins fully pay for its own national defense. It's been a long time since they had to do that. Their economy and social society have benefited greatly during this time.

 

[mchammer]

I look forward to the day Germany once again begins fully pay for its own national defense. It's been a long time since they had to do that. Their economy and social society have benefited greatly during this time.

I would think other countries in the EU such as Greece, Spain, etc feel the same.

 

[mchammer]

Germany, due to its location in Central Europe, only has one enemy nowadays in Russia. I don't believe fellow NATO ally Turkey qualifies. As such, they have reasonably concluded that the US would come to Europe's rescue if attacked by Russia. Maybe under Trump the line has moved West to France.

 

[Mr. Deez]

If we piss on NATO (which would be a monumentally stupid thing to do), the movement won't be toward Germany paying for it's own defense. It'll be toward the further development of an EU military. Why fund their own defense when they can hustle money out of the rest of Europe?

 

[Brad Austin]

It'll be toward the further development of an EU military.

This. If it wasn't massively beneficial to milk off the #1 U.S. defense in NATO, the EU countries would massively pool their defenses into a common EU force trumping that of any individual country.

I expect this will occur somewhere down the line as the U.S. and EU countries drift further apart. Brexit thankfully allows us to remain linked to our most desired European partner.

 

[Mr. Deez]

This. If it wasn't massively beneficial to milk off the #1 U.S. defense in NATO, the EU countries would massively pool their defenses into a common EU force trumping that of any individual country.

They obviously like the support the US provides, but it's not so much that they couldn't readily cover it if they had to on a day-to-day basis. Keep in mind that the claim that the US provides 73 percent of NATO is very deceptive. That's only true if you count the entire US defense budget, the overwhelming majority of which has nothing to do with NATO or European defense. What we do spend in Europe would be easy for the EU and its $16 trillion economy to make up for.

The real benefit Europe gets from NATO is Article 5 - the willingness of the entire alliance (including the United States) to go to war to protect each each other. That's why Putin can annex part of Ukraine without any fear of major consequences but can't do the same thing to Latvia.

There are also political problems with relying on an EU military. Specifically, not all countries in the EU have the same agenda or the same security concerns. The US has the military and economic clout to force a nationalist Hungary and a politically correct globalist France to basically overlook their differences to defeat a common enemy. Nobody in the EU on their own has that kind of clout or credibility, including Germany.

I expect this will occur somewhere down the line as the U.S. and EU countries drift further apart. Brexit thankfully allows us to remain linked to our most desired European partner.

Only a colossal failure of leadership in the US and in Europe would cause this to happen. Though they have differences (and always have), the US and Europe mostly have common interests and values. They also mostly have common enemies.

And yes, if the NATO alliance fell apart, we'd still (probably) have the UK, but that would still be a major military and strategic loss for the US. It would be a bad thing.