General Robert E. Lee and others

texas_ex2000

texas_ex2000

2,500+ Posts
So I read they are moving the Jefferson Davis statue off of the Main Mall to some other part of campus...I think to some American History Museum. As Davis' connections to Texas are almost non-existent, I have nothing against this action other than some cynicism that its driven by political correctness and the energy on that wasted versus more impactful important racial justice issues.

I think everyone here knows my favorite historical figures are Alexander Hamilton and the Marquis De Lafayatte in large part because they were modern thinkers as it applied to race and liberty. They get extra credit in my book for being forward thinking as opposed to being "men of their time."

So it brings me to other names in our history synonymous with slavery or the Confederacy:

Col. William B. Travis
Captain Richard King
Charles Goodnight
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison

And this guy General Robert E. Lee. There's a spectrum in the list of slavery evilness so it may be a little unfair to lump everyone together, but all these men supported, owned, and fought either specifically or by proxy for slavery.

So I'm trying to get some perspectives from you guys on what that means to their legacies, what we teach our children. As a military history nerd, General Lee's legacy as it relates to professionalism, character, leadership has always been unimpeachable. Ten years from now, will he just be a slaveholding traitor? Is that right? wrong?

General Nathan Bedford Forrest is another interesting historical figure. I just knew of him as probably the best American cavalry officer ever, and simultaneously an alleged war criminal* (Fort Pillow Masacre - history written by victors bias may play a part here), and heinous slave trading and racist figures in American history. A couple of years ago, I read up more on him including this New York Times article http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0713.html. And I realized how complex these men were. By the time Forrest retired he was a born again Christian and was invited by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association, what would have been called a black civil rights organization today, to speak to their membership. Here was a guy who was a founding member of the KKK*, advocating for racial harmony, advocating for equal voting rights, professing his desire to be their servant in any capacity. You can be cynical about that today, but that was social suicide in his circles for a man like him.

You can read his speech from a scan on the Memphis Daily Appeal here. It's the bottom of the third column with the bold "The Invited Guest."
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045160/1875-07-06/ed-1/seq-1/

Or via Wikipedia under "Speaks to Black Southerners":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest#cite_note-61

I'm not saying the guy was Saint Paul and I admit I'm probably too much of a sucker for redemption stories, but history is fascinating, complex, and an ocean from which to learn so we can be better people today. It's not black and white.

*After multiple Union investigations, Forrest was cleared of any war crimes at Fort Pillow. That's not to say there wasn't a massacre - there was. The Union forces (majority of them black) outnumbered and asked multiple times to surrender fought to the bitter-end. And the few that tried to surrendered during battle were shot by his men, but not by order of Forrest who was nowhere near the area. According to Gen. Sherman's investigation, as soon as heard that surrendering troops were being shot he stopped it. By multiple first hand accounts, he treated his POWs (both black and white) well and in accordance with the rules of war.

*the facts of his KKK ties are murky and disputed if he actually was a member. The history narratives that state he was a member do say that it was for a few years and he left when the KKK evolved from a fraternity and anti-black political group to a violent terrorist organization. He apparently called for the KKK to disband. Who knows. After the war he hired many black employees and got reprimanded by the federal government (who were auidting business during reconstruction to ensure fair pay for freeman) for paying them too much and allowing them to own guns.
 
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According to the UT statue task force, everything prior to 1950 is racist. That comes from our state's first tier university, so I think we can pretty much shut down the thread. Everything was racist. Discussion over.
 
texas_ex2000 said:
So it brings me to other names in our history synonymous with slavery or the Confederacy:
Col. William B. Travis
Captain Richard King
Charles Goodnight
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison

And this guy General Robert E. Lee. There's a spectrum in the list of slavery evilness so it may be a little unfair to lump everyone together, but all these men supported, owned, and fought either specifically or by proxy for slavery.

So I'm trying to get some perspectives from you guys on what that means to their legacies, what we teach our children. As a military history nerd, General Lee's legacy as it relates to professionalism, character, leadership has always been unimpeachable. Ten years from now, will he just be a slaveholding traitor? Is that right? wrong?
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We're certainly heading toward that direction. I don't think we'll ever preach that Washington, Jefferson, and Madison were bad guys because they're so famous for other huge things (Revolutionary War hero, early presidents, authored the Constitution, etc.), but their legacies will certainly be tarnished - already are to a point. The less prominent guys could have much worse reputations over time, especially Robert E. Lee.

You mention Nathan Bedford Forrest. His reputation is already destroyed. Hailing his military talents is a little like hailing the Nazis' skills at building roads and infrastructure. Nobody really disputes it, but their acts of evil so heavily outweigh anything they did right that it's almost politically incorrect to even mention the things they did well. Forrest's reputation is comparable. I'm not saying that's fair, but the guy fought for the Confederacy and helped start the KKK. In modern PC culture, that is unforgivable regardless of context, explanation, or what other things he did. Lee's reputation will be similar but not quite as bad because he didn't have a role in starting the Klan. I think it's stupid to do that with anybody (even the Nazis), because it's anti-intellectual, but to many, propaganda is more important than truth.
 
You know, last month was named for a man whose atrocities against the Germantic tribes makes the barbarities perpetrated by everyone on ex 2000's list and the Ku Klux Klan seem comparatively trivial. We still learn about Alexander the Great who basically murdered and enslaved hundreds of thousands of people to no noble purpose. We shouldn't forget these important men and their impact on history. At least some Confederate monuments, I see tend to sanitize and glorify rather than illuminate history and reevaluating their place on campus makes senses.
By the way, I'm not surprised at Robert E. Lee statues. The man was honorable in his personal conduct and an amazing military leader. Jefferson Davis seems a relative bumbler. I wonder why people cared passionately enough to erect a statue in his honor.
 
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Crockett said:
You know, last month was named for a man whose atrocities against the Germantic tribes makes the barbarities perpetrated by everyone on ex 2000's list and the Ku Klux Klan seem comparatively trivial.
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Two things. First, Alexander the Great goes back too far to have major political implications today. Second, who the bad guy's victims are is more important than how many he enslaved, killed, etc. Nobody gives a damn about Germanic tribes, because a political agenda isn't served by caring about them. An agenda is served by caring about (or pretending to care about) black slaves at least if their slaveowners are white people in the United States.
 
I can honestly say this the first time I am ashamed of my University. The Nazi's and Communists removed statues and dehumanized people and their heritage and now the University is doing the same thing. They have no regard for the Texas Alumni or native Texans or Texas heritage. The missive from Fenves and the report by the "so called" task force are simply juvenile and ignorant.
A quick Google search:

Gregory Fenves Origin is Northern. Raised in central Illinois, attended high school outside of Pittsburg graduated Cornell and Cal Berkley.
The following list is the “Task Force Committee” assembled by Fenves to give a recommendation on the University of Texas Confederate statues:

Gregory Vincent Chairman African American Northern Origin. Native of New York graduated from college in New York and Law school in Ohio. Vincent is head of the diversity department at Texas.

Daina Ramey Berry African American. Graduated from UCLA. Courses taught at The University of Texas: Gender and Slavery in the United States, The Domestic Slave Trade, and Antebellum Slavery.

Edmund Ted Gordon African American. Graduated from Stanford and Miami. Chair of the African and African Diaspora Studies Department at Texas.

Marisa Swanson African American -Texan. UT student from Texas 40 acres scholar. President, Social Work Council, member of Senate of College Councils, Senior in School of Social Work.

Rohit Mandalapu – Origin unknown. Student working to remove Confederate statues.

Xavier Rotnovsky – Origin unknown. Student working to remove Confederate statues.

Carlos Martinez – Hispanic Texan. Graduated St. Mary’s and UT Law.

Hector de Leon - Hispanic Texan. Graduated UT BA and UT Law.

Brian Wilkey Origin is Northern. He is from Vandalia, Ohio and graduated from Miami University of Ohio. Graduate student.

Lorraine Pangle Origin is Northern. Graduate Yale, University of Toronto, University of Chicago. “Thomas Jefferson may be an inspiring figure from our past, but he is hardly the best symbol for America’s future.” Wife of Thomas Pangle, the Joe R. Long Chair in Democratic Studies in the Department of Government and is Co-Director of the Thomas Jefferson Center for Core Texts at the University of Texas.

Frederick Fritz Steiner Origin is Northern. Born Dayton Ohio. Graduate University of Cincinnati, University of Pennsylvania.

Laura Beckworth Origin is Texan. Born Houston, Texas. Graduate of University of North Carolina, UT Law.

The reality of the so called "task Force "was a foregone conclusion of 12-0 to move or remove statues. The "Task force" was then used as a source by the dishonest Fenves.
What a sham.

Fenves just alienated a significant portion of Texas Alumni, that just like me will never give another dime to the University of Texas.

28 million Texans and we cannot find a Texas President for the University of Texas.
 
I would not go as far to say I am ashamed, but I have ceased all donations to the University both for academics and sports. The place is becoming a train wreck of bad leadership.
 
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What I saw on TV actually looked acceptable to me. Maybe there is more to it, but I heard they are moving the Jefferson Davis statue to a historical exhibit and are leaving all the statues in place for men who have direct ties to Texas. I think that is reasonable. I admit. I always thought it was odd that Lee and Davis had statues at the University of Texas. We need statues of those who founded the Republic, State, and University, not politicians of the Confederacy from other States. It isn't like they are destroying the non-Texas statues either, they are moving them to be shown as part of history.
 
Everyone in this thread is ignoring the fact UT will also be removing the Woodrow Wilson statue.

You have to understand that the south mall was a memorial to the two great wars prior to the 1920s. The memorial had confederate leaders and post confederacy leaders. It had Davis, our leader during the civil war (Texas did secede folks), and Wilson our leader during World War 1. It ultimately was meant to show secession then reconciliation. Despite all the statements at the time about showing reconciliation which the task force noted, the task force's opinion was that it was really all a giant racist monument. This includes Hogg who was not even in the civil war. The task force went as far as to call UT a klan institute.

If the standard is going to be "Texas ties", then Cesar Chavez, MLK JR and George Washington will have to go. I guess an argument could be made for Cesar Chavez, but there are soooooo many hispanic leaders with stronger Texas ties that are better choices it's not even funny.

Personally I am against removing any statue. I think (north) Barbara Jordan, (west mall) Cesar Chavez, (south mall) Jefferson Davis, Woodrow Wilson, George Washington, Robert E. Lee, Albert Sydney Johnston, Jim Hogg, John Reagan, (east mall) MLK JR, the (stadium) WW1 soldier, Ricky Williams, Earl Campbell, etc. should all stay. They all represent a different group (diversity) and a different part of history relevant to this state. I am not a fan of Joe Jamail or the statues of other donors in the football stadium. I would be happier to see them gone.... but you know what? They cared enough to donate millions so their statues should stay. Just like Littlefield's statues should stay since he was "the university's biggest benefactor for the first 50 years of its existence." At least Littlefield put up historical statues and was not vain enough to put up a statue of himself.

(On another note, the committee called Littlefield a "neo confederate." Littlefield himself actually fought in the civil war. If you actually fight in the civil war.... how can you be a "neo confederate"? Would you not be an original confederate? Honestly, numerous things like that in the report left me questioning the intelligence of the task force and not just their bias or lack of perspective. This whole thing seems to be a massive movement by people from places that did not secede to try and erase the fact Texas ever seceded. They do not like the fact UT was founded by ex-confederates and now they want to erase that. Ultimately they seem intent on erasing everything prior to 1950 including WW1 memorials. I believe we will see a day they want to take DKR and Memorial off the football stadium. Patterson might beat them to it and rename the stadium after a corporate sponsor.)

I wish the administration would instead approach this matter by adding more statues like they did with Barbara Jordan. Inclusiveness, by definition, means adding more and not taking away. It is also more historically interesting to walk around the campus and see different statues from different eras. However, sadly, the current non Texan non Longhorn administrators of our university decided to take the ISIS, USSR, Nazi approach instead.

Since the people in charge consider UT to be a klan institute and want to be the University of California at Austin or the University that Hates Texas and her History in Austin, I will not be donating.
 
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IvanDiabloHorn said:
A quick Google search:

Gregory Fenves Origin is Northern. Raised in central Illinois, attended high school outside of Pittsburg graduated Cornell and Cal Berkley.
The following list is the “Task Force Committee” assembled by Fenves to give a recommendation on the University of Texas Confederate statues:

Gregory Vincent Chairman African American Northern Origin. Native of New York graduated from college in New York and Law school in Ohio. Vincent is head of the diversity department at Texas.

Daina Ramey Berry African American. Graduated from UCLA. Courses taught at The University of Texas: Gender and Slavery in the United States, The Domestic Slave Trade, and Antebellum Slavery.

Edmund Ted Gordon African American. Graduated from Stanford and Miami. Chair of the African and African Diaspora Studies Department at Texas.

Marisa Swanson African American -Texan. UT student from Texas 40 acres scholar. President, Social Work Council, member of Senate of College Councils, Senior in School of Social Work.

Rohit Mandalapu – Origin unknown. Student working to remove Confederate statues.

Xavier Rotnovsky – Origin unknown. Student working to remove Confederate statues.

Carlos Martinez – Hispanic Texan. Graduated St. Mary’s and UT Law.

Hector de Leon - Hispanic Texan. Graduated UT BA and UT Law.

Brian Wilkey Origin is Northern. He is from Vandalia, Ohio and graduated from Miami University of Ohio. Graduate student.

Lorraine Pangle Origin is Northern. Graduate Yale, University of Toronto, University of Chicago. “Thomas Jefferson may be an inspiring figure from our past, but he is hardly the best symbol for America’s future.” Wife of Thomas Pangle, the Joe R. Long Chair in Democratic Studies in the Department of Government and is Co-Director of the Thomas Jefferson Center for Core Texts at the University of Texas.

Frederick Fritz Steiner Origin is Northern. Born Dayton Ohio. Graduate University of Cincinnati, University of Pennsylvania.

Laura Beckworth Origin is Texan. Born Houston, Texas. Graduate of University of North Carolina, UT Law.

The reality of the so called "task Force "was a foregone conclusion of 12-0 to move or remove statues. The "Task force" was then used as a source by the dishonest Fenves.
What a sham.

Fenves just alienated a significant portion of Texas Alumni, that just like me will never give another dime to the University of Texas.

28 million Texans and we cannot find a Texas President for the University of Texas.
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The merit of identity studies aside, any sincere true liberal/academic would have to admit that Task Force is a farce if the goal was a real discussion of the issue.
 
Because he liked "Birth of a Nation?"
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The task force felt this showed Wilson was a neo-confederate, white supremacist, klan supporter. They felt that was the only reason his statue was put up. They felt the UT leaders at the time that said it was part of the reconciliation message and WW1 memorial were lying.
 
I guess I just don't care about the original message. It wasn't something I was aware of before and I have looked at all the statues on campus. Woodrow Wilson was a POS and I don't see why he needs to be remember on the campus of UT. Same with Jefferson Davis. And the point is still that these statues aren't being destroyed they are going to still be displayed in a history exhibit. So I don't get how they are erasing anything historically if the statues will still be located on campus somwhere. I would much rather add statues of people who found the University, be they slavers or not. I am more upset that they renamed Simkins. That is a BS move. He might have been an a-hole, but he helped found the school so having his name on a building is relevant.
 
Woodrow Wilson was a POS
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The worst was when he tried to found a league of nations in hopes of avoiding future wars or when he tried to prevent the heavy punishment of Germany that directly led to the great depression, hitler and world war 2. He also oversaw the creation of the fed and the passage of the clayton anti-trust act. He endorsed the 19th amendment giving women the right to vote. His Fourteen Points also supported an end to European Colonialism. What a POS that guy was.
 
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Yeah, if he really cared about Germany, he never would have gone to war against them and gave over all his foreign policy during that time to Edwin House who had close ties to British bankers. How did the League work out? How is the UN working out? If he really wanted to avoid war he could have just avoided war since he was the President of the US. Instead he chose to spend US lives and treasure to fight a war for the benefit of his political allies that had invested a lot of money in the UK's economy and banking system.

But really what was worse was he was involved in the start of the Federal Reserve. He was very supportive of extending business favors to those companies who gave him influence/control over those industries (crony capitalism), which despite his rhetoric didn't fight against monopolies but protected his friends' businesses from competition/innovation. And he was a racist, eugenecist. He was a pretty disgusting person from what I have read. But go ahead a support him for all his "good intentions".
 
I am not a fan of the US getting involved in world war 1. My great grandfather was gassed in the battle of the argonne forest and suffered the effects for the rest of his life. That war was a mistake on Wilson and America's part.

However, Wilson on the whole was a forward thinking president. The Fed is necessary to grow a modern economy. My grandmother is from London and I like England. Most important of all was not punishing Germany. If there is no heavy punishment, there is no german economic collapse, no world economic collapse, and no hitler. At least, that's my opinion.
 
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I guess we are going to have to disagree then. My opinion on each of the items you bring up are on the opposite end of the spectrum. You certainly don't need a central bank with its central planners to have a free and functioning market economy.
 
I think that a state university should strive to teach/represent the values of the majority of its people, not the values of the long haired, wacko, leftist, Ivy Leaguers who make up its faculty. That said, UT ceased to represent my values a long time ago. I'd be interested to know what portion of the UTA faculty actually have some ties to the state.

UT has many ugly statues and I don't particularly give a damn about any of them. But, the tearing down/moving of these statues is disconcerting because its just an act of mollification to appease the Left. Beyond that, it doesn't accomplish anything. The UT admin must be trying to be even less popular than Steve Patterson.

I hope alumni donations drop faster than UT season ticket sales. I've never contributed much, but they'll not even get that from here on.
 
theiioftx said:
I would not go as far to say I am ashamed, but I have ceased all donations to the University both for academics and sports. The place is becoming a train wreck of bad leadership.
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That is pretty much where I am at. A university should be a place where free thinking and speech is encouraged. It should be the last place that political correctness should ever find a home.
 
I remember as a freshman from a small rural town watching some communist club exercise their free speech on the west mall. I found it offensive, ironic and funny. It was a big part of my education to understand that the way I grew up was totally different than others. Would not trade the experience for anything.
 
I think it's about time to quit fighting the Civil War. I never thought the statues had any place on the UT campus, and they sure don't today. How about some statues of great inspirational academic thinkers...Socrates, Aristotle, Bob Dylan.
 
I think it's about time to quit fighting the Civil War.
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I agree, leave the statues alone. The only people "fighting" are the people trying to change what has been there for almost 100 years.

Bob Dylan.
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Pretty much everyone else that attempted to make any type of music in the 60s and 70s is better than Bob Dylan.
 
I am pretty sure Aristotle and Socrates were products of a racist slave society, so they are out.
 
I was in favor of removing the confederate flag from the SC capital, but I think removing Lee's statue from a college campus is a much harder question, and I lean towards the "leave them" side.

A state capital is where important decisions are made. Citizens should be able to go there without having to face a symbol that is reasonably viewed as being blatantly racist and exclusionary. It's not just that the flag was used during a period of slavery. It has been used extensively as a symbol in the defense of slavery and post-slavery racism.

For what it's worth, Lee shares this same attribute. He wasn't just a person who happened to live during a period of slavery, and partook in its evils. He is a person who became famous primarily because of his defense of slavery. The comparisons of him to our founding fathers, or to Aristotle and Socrates, are silly.

But a college campus is a place where learning about our history and heritage -- even the bad parts -- should be cherished. Civil rights groups should not want Lee statutes torn down. They should hold rallies in front of Lee statues, and use his statute as a reminder of how far we have come. But he should not be white-washed out of our collective memories. He is an important part of who we are.
 
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