Focus on the Issues

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Oilfield

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Should a President have the authoirty to start a military campaign without congressional approval?

As a Senator, Joe Biden said he would introduce articles of impeachment if President Bush attacked Iran without congressional approval.

I certainly understand the necessity if the country is under attack. However, Libya has not attacked us, as far as I know, within the last 20 years or so.
 
agree....the issues are gas, currency, debt, economy/jobs, war...BHO has failed in all areas with no end in sight.

Hey Hey Ho Ho BHO needs to go

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MichTex,
As I remember it the point of going into Grenada was because of the imminent threat of them 'falling' into Communism. It was thought at the time that this would give a foothold (in addition to Cuba) for the USSR in the Western Hemisphere.
Most people in the 1980s would have considered the USSR, and Communism to be 'enemies' of the US. We were engaged in what is known as the cold war.
Plenty of room to agree/disagree about whether that is justifiable rationale for Reagan to enact the War Powers. I generally attempt to give the President the benefit of the doubt when it comes to such matters.
I have become MORE wary after W, and so I think that the Libya issue is extra tough because I am not sure what our goals are, and the WH has expressedly said there is no real set criteria for committing US troops. That scares me.
 
we went in to grenada because there was a communist millitary coup to overthrow the government which succeeded. it was assisted by cuba. this was back when communism was considered a bad thing by both repubicans and dems. it was also part of a rescue mission to evacuate us citizens. the event is now a national holiday in grenada.
 
Theu, you state the actual reasons we invaded Grenada. The stated reason at the time was a lie about danger to American students on the island. Another possible reason for the timing was to overshadow the disastrous truck bomb attack on the Marine Barracks in Beirut which killed 241 Marines.

The Executive Branch habit of lying to justify a military action is as disturbing as the Legislative Branch's capitulation of their responsibility to consider and approve military action.

We had no business in Viet Nam, Beirut and the second war with Iraq. I think Clinton was damn lucky in Bosnia because I'm not convinced we needed to send and maintain soldiers there.

I supported Reagan's action in Grenada and against Libya, but I always wondered why he felt the need to lie about our reasons for doing so. In the case of Libya, there is no evidence that they had anything to do with the disco bombing in Germany. Ghadaffi had done enough things to justify the action without cooking up a lame, dishonest reason to attack him.

Sweeping the Cubans out of Grenada was also a good enough reason to move against that island. I would have done it differently, but that is beside the point.

We like to have an emotional rallying cry instead of a rational policy for going to war. Remember the Maine! Remember the Lusitania! Save the medical students who never felt threatened! We're idiots.
 
RV,
good post. I think we agree that there should be far LESS American lives committed over seas. Some people here think I am very hard on Obama. The main reason is because W raised my attention to just how perverted our Executive Branch is. I didn't post much on hornfans until W was almost out of office.... If W was pres still I am sure I would be considered a 'liberal' more. As is, with a D in the WH I am considered a 'conservative.'
 
Focus on the issues? Yeah, you and your ilk always do that.
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Between all that birther nonsense and just plain making **** up, you sure are one to talk. You are such a hypocrite it makes me ill.
 
re Grenada: you guys need to brush up on your history. The place was already being run by communists. Their commie government had invited the Cubans in to build the airstrip. The coup you are talking about was one bunch of commies killing another bunch.

The american students at the med school were not in any danger until our troops showed up bearing out of date road maps; and then the commies just ignored the students.

The invasion of Grenada was a nice sideshow and turned people's gaze from what had just happened in Lebanon: a couple of hundred of our Marines got blown up by a suicide bomber. Reagan had unwisely sent them in to give cover to our Israeli pals and then, wisely in my opinion, withdrew them after some were blown up.

Our withdrawal after the Marines got blown up has been cited by Osama bin Shithead as his reason for believing that if the US took a few casualties we would run. He is currently either dead (my bet) or sitting in a cave mulling the wisdom of that conclusion.
 
When one discusses US intervention in the 3rd World between 1947 and 1989, it is imperative to examine official US records before spouting off nonsense about the Soviet Union. Particularly revealing was the logic revealed by Henry Kissinger for the US-backed coup on 9/11/73 in Chile. He said "Allende was elected legally, the first Marxist government ever to come to power by free elections. The example of a successful elected Marxist government in Chile would surely have an impact on-and even precedent value for-other parts of the world." Nixon expanded that "our main concern in Chile is the prospect that he [Allende] can consolidate himself and the picture projected to the world will be his success." In fact the CIA explicitly demonstrated to the President and to Kissinger before such statements were issued that Allende was no favorite of Castro or the Soviet Union and that he would be "hard for the Communist Party and for Moscow to control." But the CIA backed the coup, which set up decades of torture in Chile via the installation of Augusto Pinochet, one of the single greatest mass murderers in the Western Hemisphere in the post-WW2 era.

That Kissinger/Nixon logic was neither innovative nor unique in the Executive Branch, and it wouldn't be the last time it was used. The logic has a technical name in political science: The Threat of a Good Example. The US does not want what Kissinger referred to as an "independent, rational socialist state" providing a good example for the rest of the 3rd world. That's why the US was involved in Greece in 1947, Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, South Vietnam in 1962, Brazil in 1964, Indonesia and the Dominican Republic in 1965, etc etc.

Grenada was the same, as was Nicaragua at the same time. The US did not want independent development models proving themselves successful to the rest of the world. Some here have made comments about the Cuban involvement in Grenada. No one mentioned, however, that the Cubans who were killed in Grenada were nothing more than several dozen paramilitary construction workers who were attacked by over six thousand American troops. Also unmentioned was the fact that the Cubans said they would only fire on the Americans if they were attacked first, which they were. The Cubans had also announced that they were willing to negotiate the whole issue (namely referring that they were willing to concede American control of a hospital which had some American med-school students there at the time). The US refused and proceeded as planned. That's a typical example, and since we're talking about the Reagan years, none was made clearer than the case of Nicaragua. Bottom line, the reasons given by the US administrations for these actions were, from the first upper case letter to the last punctuation, sheer fraud.

To quote the late Howard Zinn, "the real reason for the invasion [of Grenada] one high American official told [Bernard] Gwertzman, was that the United States should show (determined to overcome the sense of defeat in Vietnam) that it was a truly powerful nation: "What good are maneuvers and shows of force, if you never use it?""
 
More people applied for unemployment benefits
More people requested unemployment benefits last week, the second increase in 3 weeks
The Link

Economic growth slows as inflation surgesThe Link

Dollar Weakens, Treasuries Gain as U.S. GDP Slows; Stocks RiseThe Link


Silver hits record near $50, first time since 1980
The Link

- More than half of Americans say the U.S. economy is in a recession or a depression despite official data that show a moderate recovery, according to a poll released on Thursday.
The Link

Gas Prices, Bad Weather Slam U.S. Economy; GDP Growth Slowed to 1.8%
The Link

Eight US Soldiers Killed In Non-War Violence In AfghanistanThe Link

IMF predicts China economy will pass US sooner than expectedThe Link


Meanwhile BHO is hitting Oprah and hitting NYC for more fund raising. 3 fundraisers in NYC...who is was on the guest list...probably Wall Street types that were bailed out.

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So can the Vice President issue articles of Impeachment against the President? Could be quite a windfall for Biden.
 
I'm looking forward to Panetta cutting the defense budget. Primarily because there needs to be cuts across the board and DoD should be shielded from scrutiny in this regard. But also because we've just gotten so comfortable with the idea that our military can accomplish any military mission we give it, so now we seem to be very willing to regularly give it new things to do.

If you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.
 
Glad to see Oilfield finally got religion on this issue. I doubt however that he/she would be bringing this up with a Republican president.
 
Actually, it matters not what I think about the President, regardless of party, anyway. I just wish our press was not so dead to questioning The One.
 

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