Duggan safety -- a critique and a rules question

NJlonghorn

2,500+ Posts
I've watched the replay of the Duggan safety multiple times. The clock had just hit 0:01 when Duggan stepped out of bounds. It didn't hit 0 until he was a full 3 steps out of the end zone.

My critique is that Herman should have challenged the call that time had expired. We would've had a chance to try the multi-lateral thing on the ensuing free kick. It probably wouldn't have worked, but why not try?

My rules question is whether the holding penalty would have been enforced on the free kick. I didn't fully understand the ref's explanation, but he seemed to say that 10-yard penalties don't carry over after scoring plays. Is that just for end-of-game scoring plays, or all scoring plays?
 
I've watched the replay of the Duggan safety multiple times. The clock had just hit 0:01 when Duggan stepped out of bounds. It didn't hit 0 until he was a full 3 steps out of the end zone.

My critique is that Herman should have challenged the call that time had expired. We would've had a chance to try the multi-lateral thing on the ensuing free kick. It probably wouldn't have worked, but why not try?

My rules question is whether the holding penalty would have been enforced on the free kick. I didn't fully understand the ref's explanation, but he seemed to say that 10-yard penalties don't carry over after scoring plays. Is that just for end-of-game scoring plays, or all scoring plays?
This was brought to my attention by someone else on this board. He went on to suggest that had we fair caught the kick or the squib, he wondered if the clock would not have started, and that one second would have remained. In that scenario (which seems plausible), Texas would have had one play including, perhaps, a long FG to win the game.

Given what we saw from this crew it’s a reasonable conclusion that they blew the call. It’s almost a certainly as well that Herman blew the opportunity to contest the call.
 
That was the worst officiated game I've ever seen

I am much older and remember Frenchy Dominguez, Shorty Lawson, the pride of Waco forced on the conference by the outgoing president of Baylor (worst ever), JD ???, the principal of Kimball HS, the dentist from El Dorado, AR, and those were all before Walt Anderson.

This was Brad Van Vark from Pella, Iowa, a reject from the Big Sky and MWC, which by the way is the same description given the head of Big XII officials, aka, Greg Walleye Burks. Get used to it, because all your going to get is West coast rejects. VanVark is actually one of the best Walleye has assembled.

If Bowelsby had a clue, he would hire Texas & Oklahoma HS officials to do games, but then again there is no "if", Bowelsby is clueless. His actions have cost the Big XII billions.
 
Yes....I saw it the same way but was tired of complaining by that time.
Let me take a stab here....
We should have had 1 sec for sure, but I believe accepting the holding penalty would have led to a replay of down according to the "refs"? BUT ...interestingly enough, if the holding was in the endzone (and it appeared to be), and occurred prior to his stepping out, then the safety should be awarded based on the holding not the stepping out and a free kick awarded....not sure what time would be put on the clock. (I'm not so sure the automatic application of the holding in the endzone and free kick doesn't apply even when he steps out?)
At that point, I do believe we could fair catch and attempt an uncontested field goal.
Anyone care to critique this^^^^^^^^?
I'd like to know.
One more thing....Yes, TH is way too passive with refs....and players for that matter..
 
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Yes....I saw it the same way but was tired of complaining by that time.
Let me take a stab here....
We should have had 1 sec for sure, but I believe accepting the holding penalty would have led to a replay of down according to the "refs"? BUT ...interestingly enough, if the holding was in the endzone (and it appeared to be), and occurred prior to his stepping out, then the safety should be awarded based on the holding not the stepping out and a free kick awarded....not sure what time would be put on the clock. (I'm not so sure the automatic application of the holding in the endzone and free kick doesn't apply even when he steps out?)
At that point, I do believe we could fair catch and attempt an uncontested field goal.
Anyone care to critique this^^^^^^^^?
I'd like to know.
One more thing....Yes, TH is way too passive with refs....and players for that matter..

I agree with all you say except the part about an uncontested field goal. That exists in the NFL and in high school, but not in college. I read a while ago that it was removed from the NCAA rulebook long ago (1950, iirc). If they took a fair catch, they would've had to take a snap, so if they wanted to kick a field goal it would've been 7 or 8 yards back.
 
Rain.

I think Walleye's brain just exploded reading your post. It is my understanding that the uncontested FG is still in play.
 
I agree that there should have been one second remaining, but even if time ran out during the safety, shouldn't the free kick still take place? I honestly don't know the answer.
 
WRONG TONTO !! The game clock is different than what you see on the scoreboard Einstein !! That is why the Refs constantly have to reset the game clock (because the numbskulls running the game clock don't always match up with the official time which the Refs keep.

Nice try at squirming though !! Do you wear pink underwear also when you whine ?


I've watched the replay of the Duggan safety multiple times. The clock had just hit 0:01 when Duggan stepped out of bounds. It didn't hit 0 until he was a full 3 steps out of the end zone.

My critique is that Herman should have challenged the call that time had expired. We would've had a chance to try the multi-lateral thing on the ensuing free kick. It probably wouldn't have worked, but why not try?

My rules question is whether the holding penalty would have been enforced on the free kick. I didn't fully understand the ref's explanation, but he seemed to say that 10-yard penalties don't carry over after scoring plays. Is that just for end-of-game scoring plays, or all scoring plays?
 
You do realize that TCU got jobbed by the Refs multiple times also, right ?

You act like LongHorns were the only ones getting called for penalties. TCU actually had more penalties and many of them were just as devastating as the UT penalties.

But of course you don't want to discuss any of that. Much more fun to only focus on how UT got screwed which makes it seem to you as if UT team is actually better than it really is and they only lost due to fluke of some kind.

Not hardly. Tcu shoulda put 21 more points on the board that they "gifted" to UT in that game !!

Many calls were blown. That was the worst officiated game I've ever seen. HS games are better officiated.
 
If TCU plays UT 10 more times.......

TCU wins 9 and UT wins 1.

Ehllinger was gassed and was starting to make really dumb decisions (as he did last yr with 4 INTs vs TCU). Ingram was gassed. Tcu players were just getting started !! UT needs a better S&C Coach for sure !! WOW. Is Ingram really that slow to get caught from behind in such a humiliating way ? What the H was that ? It cost UT the game because Ingram was on his way to score and got caught embarrassingly from behind (and then UT did not score and lost the game). The Tcu guy that caught him with the enormous speed differential on that play is a 4.55 guy (nowhere near the fastest Tcu guy). Ingram must be a 5.0 forty dash guy from the looks of that pathetic play !! Geeez ! That game losing play is on YouTube and everyone is laughing at Ingram getting run down so embarrassingly. Funny stuff.

UT Linebackers were non-existent at the end of the game (Duggans winning TD run up the middle without even being touched) and a child (or Spencer Rattler with a pink skirt on) could have run in for a TD. UT defense was very lucky TCU didn't discover the idiotic UT defense earlier.
 
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You do realize that TCU got jobbed by the Refs multiple times also, right ?

You act like LongHorns were the only ones getting called for penalties. TCU actually had more penalties and many of them were just as devastating as the UT penalties.

But of course you don't want to discuss any of that. Much more fun to only focus on how UT got screwed which makes it seem to you as if UT team is actually better than it really is and they only lost due to fluke of some kind.

Not hardly. Tcu shoulda put 21 more points on the board that they "gifted" to UT in that game !!

DUDE. THAT WAS THE WORST OFFICIATED GAME IVE SEEN. DO YOU DISAGREE?
 
If TCU plays UT 10 more times.......

TCU wins 9 and UT wins 1.

UT Linebackers were non-existent at the end of the game (Duggans winning TD run up the middle without even being touched) and a child (or Spencer Rattler with a pink skirt on) could have run in for a TD. UT defense was very lucky TCU didn't discover the idiotic UT defense earlier.

You are clearly a troll. Texas didn't deserve to win but you are an ***.
 
It was the worst officiated game (to you) only because you are whining about losing.

If you had won the game none of you would be whining anywhere near as loud.

We call that teen-age girl pink panties behavior and you qualify !! Check your panties Susie !! And next time you lose try to just man up and say the best team won (7 out of last 9 games dominated by TCU) instead of whining like a little girl about the officiating.

DUDE. THAT WAS THE WORST OFFICIATED GAME IVE SEEN. DO YOU DISAGREE?
 
TCU would not have been required to punt the free kick, and Patterson would have known that. He likely would have had it kicked off a tee and rolling on the ground.
 
It was the worst officiated game (to you) only because you are whining about losing.

If you had won the game none of you would be whining anywhere near as loud.

We call that teen-age girl pink panties behavior and you qualify !! Check your panties Susie !! And next time you lose try to just man up and say the best team won (7 out of last 9 games dominated by TCU) instead of whining like a little girl about the officiating.

Nooooooooooooooo. You're wrong. It was horribly officiated. The end.
 
The official time is kept by the refs, not the score keeper. So apparently all time was off the clock before the QB ran out of the end zone.

The game can end on an offensive penalty, is my understanding, so the game was over at that point.

The aspect of the 10 yard penalty seemed to come in before the refs concluded that all time was off the clock. If there had been one second left, and a free kick was going to happen, then apparently the 10 yard penalty was not going to be enforced and marked off. Not sure why - most 10 yard penalties are holding, which is what this was, so maybe the idea is that holding affects the outcome of the play, and so you either accept it and replay that down, or it goes away. Unlike a 15 yard penalty which is usually some personal foul, so those don't go away.

It's all water under the dam now.
 
Wow. I didn’t see the game, but that is a crazy, bad ending. Did Herman even protest or was he already running to the locker room to avoid The Eyes of Texas?

Looked like holding by TCU as well. How does the game end on a penalty?
 
The game can end on an offensive penalty, is my understanding, unless it's something like a personal foul after a turnover or such - the idea being that say a team fumbles while running out the clock, if the QB commits a personal foul during the run back, then what was the offense, is now the defense, so to speak.

Once the refs conferred and decided that time ran out during the play, an offensive holding penalty could not cause that play to have to be replayed. So the game was over. That's my understanding of it all anyway, as the safety counted, so time had run out before the QB crossed out of the end zone, so the game was over, and the holding call would not result in another play.
 
Once the refs conferred and decided that time ran out during the play, an offensive holding penalty could not cause that play to have to be replayed.

Even if time hadn't run out (which was possibly the right call, but it's weird that it wasn't even reviewed), we couldn't have afforded to accept the call, because even though they'd get penalized and have to re-do the down, the time doesn't go back onto the clock. This game up in the Super Bowl back when the Ravens played the 49ers too - you might as well hold and clip all you want when taking an intentional safety.

And yes, had there been 1 second left and had TCU been forced to kick off, then if they pooched up we could have called for a fair catch and no time would have run off. But consequently, their kicker would have almost surely bounced it across the ground to force us to have to score on the kick return. However, had TCU committed a penalty on the return that would get added to the end of the play, e.g. facemask, then I believe we'd have gotten 1 untimed down which could have then let us kick a last second FG, as a half cannot end on a defensive penalty and I think that a team executing a kickoff or punt counts for purposes of that rule if the penalty is after the change of possesion.

It was the worst officiated game (to you) only because you are whining about losing.

If you had won the game none of you would be whining anywhere near as loud.

This is utterly and obviously false.

Both TCU and Texas fans were complaining during the game, and so was pretty much ever unbiased observer as well. I don't think the calls necessarily cost us the game. We played sloppy and didn't deserve to win. And some of the bad calls hurt TCU as well. But the officiating was clearly rotten. Reading your mind, I can tell that you only think it wasn't rotten is because you happened to win. See how that works?
 
TCU would not have been required to punt the free kick, and Patterson would have known that. He likely would have had it kicked off a tee and rolling on the ground.
Yes, I realize they have the option to either punt or kick off a tee. I'm confused re: whether the free kick (either option) should have been required even though time expired, i.e. when a TD is scored as time expires, the PAT is still required.
 
WRONG TONTO !! The game clock is different than what you see on the scoreboard Einstein !! That is why the Refs constantly have to reset the game clock (because the numbskulls running the game clock don't always match up with the official time which the Refs keep.

Nice try at squirming though !! Do you wear pink underwear also when you whine ?
boob,
Really? No sarcasm here, how old are you?
Regardless if you are an Aggie, Sooner or Froggie, this is the most childish post.
 
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Texas was a 14 point favorite. They should never have even been in that position.The refs were lousy on both sides. Good teams overcome errors,they couldnt. Game is over TCU won,anything else doesnt really matter.
 

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