Did Christianity Cause the Crash?

Perham1

2,500+ Posts
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200912/rosin-prosperity-gospel

An interesting article in The Atlantic. One may need a subscription to access the article; I don't know.

First, I think it's clear that Christianity did not "cause" the crash but the unsettling emphasis on money by some of today's "Christian" leaders undoubtedly has lead some of the flock away from "a penny saved is a penny earned" mentality to "God loves a big-screen HDTV" outlook.

We live in confused, materialistic times, my friends. How many refinanced houses to do what, exactly? Buy a big-screen tv? Take a vacation? Pay off credit cards (that probably were soon again charged on)?

From Bonhoeffer to Joel Osteen. What a disappointing evolution.
 
Very interesting articles (the Ramsey one included). I find it a little ironic that Rick Warren is presented as a voice of reason, since his church is smack dab in the middle of an area wrought with foreclosures and crumbling housing prices. I am by no means a religious person but I find Ramsey's show and program to be fantastic. Even the religious parts I will endure, which is more than I can say for just about anyone else with the same religious slant.

We want far more than we're willing to pay for. Whether that's in our personal lives or with our government, we are simply unwilling to pay the true price for our lifestyle. Something is going to change - either our lifestyle will have to take a backseat or we have to be willing to pay the price. I suspect that many individuals will right their ship, but I am a little more pessimistic about society as a whole.
 
I suspect when our creditors finally do come calling, we'll meet them with weapons. Not exactly what I can do (or at least not effectively) if my creditors knock on my door.
 
The United States will never go BK. We can print our own money to pay our own debts. The resulting inflation may wipe out the value of the cash in your bank account, and wreak other havoc with the economy at large, but we will not go BK.

We can only do that once though. After that we'll have to borrow in Euros or Yaun and that makes paying back your debts a whole lot more complicated.

Bernard
 
I would be curious to see what % of 'Christians' go to churches like Osteen, and how many go a far different route in where they attend.
Both articles are very good, but in many ways polar opposites. While Osteen says that God wants to bless you, and that means money, Ramsey says almost the opposite. He seems to say no matter how much you make it is God's intentions that you are generous with it, by giving 10%, and that you are a good steward of the rest.
So which is it? I doubt that Christianity caused the crash. A more likely suspect is greed. Are Christians greedy? Sure. I would guess that Christians in America are no less greedy, and no more greedy, than non Christians. It seems to be a weight around the necks of most Americans, as the Ramsey article points out.
 
Joel Osteen is a cult leader/businessman. He inherited a cult from his dad and then marketed it as mainstream Christianity by removing most of the tenets except for "send me money if you want God to like you." He has no connection to any religious organization other than the aforementioned cult and has no formal training, Christian or otherwise.

I don't know how you feel about him, but I guarantee you that I dislike him more than you do.
 
Perham,
I just don't think that the % of Christians who even attend churches like those mentioned are a large enough people to cause any type of significant shift in the larger economy. Certainly, there is much that was going on in banking that had nothing at all to do with these relatively small Christian sects like Joel Osteen.
 
Christian here. Very ashamed by the prosperity gospel. I do NOT consider it a part of mainstream christianity. Its basically a cult.
Christianity in crisis: 21st century is a great book chronicling why its neither Christian nor biblical. It makes a great point that this movement has much more in common with other philosophies and movements than Christianity.
 
American (Western) Materialism, the cult of the individual (self-rewarding is a natural response to being ingrained with the idea that each is responsible primarily for their own self), and the propensity to confuse morality with prosperity (greed is good, capitalism is a good in and of itself) all lead to economic practices that are unsound. These are things that mute many of christianity's teaching which point in a different direction, away from rank materialism.

Hard to believe that christianity could cause our current economic crisis, though the way some engage the ideas of the christian world-view might have helped greed pull up a chair to the dinner table, if you will.
 
Consumerism is a bigger religion in America than is Christianity. Thank you marketers, and the corporate obligation to never ending, increasing profits.

From- a hypocrite in Finance
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One principle by which the Puritans of the 1600s could know the "elect" was if they remained prosperous throughout their lives. Not so much that the wealthy were the ones going to heaven--too much wealth was probably as bad as not enough wealth--but it is true that when John Winthrop (Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony) fell on hard times financially, through no fault of his own, he was forced into a less prominent role. They perceived a definite connection between his financial status and his moral authority.

It's maybe not such a stretch to think that the tendency to think this way could be embellished and secularized and handed down as a cult of prosperity.

But even if we can find historical continuities in the emergence of Joel Osteen, let's please not regard it as an "evolution", as though it's some sort of deterministic, natural outcome of Christianity. It's a fad. It will fade. Cults come and go. Televangelists come and go. Heresies come and go.

It sounds a lot like the Cluniac monasteries of the 10th and 11th centuries, which became magnets for donated wealth: in silver, gold, and other precious jewels. The opulence at Cluny and its daughter houses stunned visiting monks, and it eventually led to the Cistercian counter-revolution of the 11th and 12th centuries, a "back to basics" movement that focused on labor and strict observance of the Rule of Saint Benedict.

And now we have Osteen and the new wave Cluniacs. But don't forget that the Cistercians are here too, quietly going about their Christian way.
 
Coel,

Some groups within Christianity through history have had trouble seeing the distinction between Israel and the church. The Puritans had some of that thought in their doctrine, which leads to the relating prosperity to morality. It is a dangerous mistake to make as we see in how some "christians" view wealth today. According to the Mosaic covenant you could expect wealth and health if you followed biblical morality. The church does not operate under that covenant with God. We are in the New Covenant. It is better even though we don't have the same opportunity to secure health and wealth through our actions.
 
Christians would have trillions more in savings if they didn't tithe 10% of their income.
 
did jesus take punishment on hte cross for sin? does that mean that humankind no longers has to suffer from the punishment of labor that god bestowed on man because eve took a bite from an apple? how did work become integral to the western people under these conditions?
 
The article is reaching. Personally, I served at Lakewood for more than a year. It is a good place and was the right fit for me at the time. Joel is a good man and has a good family. God has blessed him.

During my time at Lakewood, I purchase a townhouse here in Houston. I stretched myself a little at the time because I wanted to be close in the loop (Rice Military). I am glad that I did not purchase another location I was considering. I stepped out and trusted God. I learned that from Joel and other mentors in my life. Of course I did have 20% to put down too. That helps. Since that time I have sold the townhouse and now am building a house. That same principle is in action again in my life. God provides He has for me and for many other friends in my life. Also I met my wife at Lakewood and we are expecting our first child this spring.

This was not an "accident".

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I don't know. There's something in that way of thinking that presumes to know the mind of God beyond what we were meant to know.

I'm glad you are doing well, but do we really want to extend your logic to all humanity? As though we can rate how much God favors us by the level of our prosperity, as though people who don't trust God enough will fall on hard times. As though the woman who miscarries is somehow guilty of a lack of trust. I know plenty of Christians who go through difficult times. I know plenty of wealthy atheists.

(Nor is the reverse true, that God somehow demands that we live in poverty.)

We definitely should trust in God, but I'm not sure we should live in the expectancy of temporal favor as a sort of repayment for that trust. If wealth is important to a person, then their priorities are misplaced; if wealth is not important to a person, then becoming wealthy can hardly be a gauge of God's favor.

Paul tells us in Romans about how God lifted up Pharaoh so that he could use him to make a point. God also puts the righteous Lot through desperate trials of faith. What we need is an account of theodicy that allows us to understand Pharaoh, Lot, and TexasGolf.

It also strikes me that the prosperity gospel might be difficult to preach in, say, Bolivia. There's something very narrow and culturally limited about it. I would think that any gospel worth preaching ought to be universal.
 
IMO, it all depends on your prespective. In my view nothing I "own" is mine. It all belongs to God. I am just borrowing it. Also, what do I do with the "things" of this earth. Do I share my blessings with others? My outflow determines my inflow....and I am not talking about outward things we can see or touch, but the inside joy and peace of mind...they are priceless. Bottom line is the more I own, the more it owns me. Also, when God sees He can trust you with little things, your cup will run over. Just my experience.
 
Yes really...again, this is my experience...I am not dealing in theories...I live it, not think it. It is a paradox. The Dead Sea is dead because it has not outflow...regardless of the inflow. Life is like clockwork..you get the 12 (made it all the way around) and you got to 1.

Again, it works for me and I have seen it work for hundreds of others I know personally.

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Two very good articles. Interesting discussion.

I see both sides of the argument.

I believe the Joel Osteens and TD Jake of the world provide a purpose, and I think it does help a lot of people.

OTOH Jesus Christ never struck me as the type of person that valued a huge house, expensive car and country club memberships.
 

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