Catholics, I want your take

I'm guessing you mean JPII and not JPI who was murdered by the Sicilian Mafia for attempting to end the corruption in Vatican Bank.
 
Sainthood today is nothing more than a marketing ploy. Maybe it was same way back when. I'm not saying that is inherently bad, mind you. The RCC is in desperate need of a "feel good" moment for some rather obvious reasons.

The notion of a miracle is more than a bit weak for the beatfication/sainthood process. But, it's the RCC's rules and they can define/frame it however they see, or in whatever way they can get away with.
 
I'd like to see some evidence of these 'miracles.' Can anyone verify that the laws of nature have been suspended so we mortals can evaluate the claims?

I can't turn water into wine but last night I did convert some Cabernet into urine. Does that count?
 
Don't know about the wine, but I do know quite a few people who can turn water into beer. Plan to try it myself one day.

So what miracles did PJPII do to get on the path to sainthood?
 
He allegedly cured a nun of Parkinson's.

I have trouble accepting that this man may be elevated to saint status. He absolutely was aware of the sex scandal running rampant through the Catholic church, and his administration dealt with the criminal priests, not by punishing them, but my moving them to new parishes and therefore into contact with new victims. He was an enabler, pure and simple. No, wait ... he not only enabled these criminal priests, he condoned their behavior.

The man deserves to roast in hell with all his other criminal priests, not be elevated to sainthood.
 
Yeah, I agree with Texanne, after turning the blind eye on all of that I just can't justify turning him into a saint.

I'm catholic because I love the process of worship and adoration for myself, but there are so many things I disagree with in christianity in general, not just catholicism.

i still pick catholicism over any protestant denominations, but they're all cooky.
 
chango,

I wasn't pretending. As a Protestant, I DO want other people's opinions. But instead of getting opinions, I got a bunch of jokes.

I just didn't want to steer the conversation from the outset. I wanted the take of others who are actually part of the Catholic church to tell me how they felt about it. Sadly, most posters decided to make humorous comments rather than discuss the actual topic.

So I decided to go ahead and post my feelings. Sorry if this offended you.
 
I'd like to hear the Catholic take on this as well.From the pope's December 2010 speech to Rome's cardinals and bishops:
"In the 1970s, pedophilia was theorized as something fully in conformity with man and even with children."

Note, please, that pedophilia is not slightly in conformity, nor merely on the margins of propriety. No. We're talking full-on, comprehensive, universal agreement. Even by the kids! I know, because I took a clipboard and did a quick survey at the playground. This may surprise you, but His Holiness is right: kids are totally cool with grown-ups ******* them. Who knew?

It gets better:

"It was maintained — even within the realm of Catholic theology — that there is no such thing as evil in itself or good in itself. There is only a ‘better than’ and a ‘worse than’. Nothing is good or bad in itself."

Moral relativism? Nay, verily not! See, banging that hot schoolboy *** isn't necessarily bad — it's just not as good as, say, feeding the poor. Torturing and burning innocent people during the Inquisition? Okay, maybe not the apex of Christian virtue, but c'mon. What kind of church refuses to adapt to the shifting sands of moral standards? A church with declining net revenues, that's what kind.

Thus:

"We cannot remain silent about the context of these times in which these events have come to light," [...] "that seems in some way to be considered more and more normal by society."

NEVER AGAIN SHALL I MUFFLE MY OUTRAGE AT THIS WICKED CONTEXT! I REBUKE YOU, VILE CONTEXT OF THE TIMES!

I caution you here: bear in mind the doctrine of Papal Infallibility, lest we fail to fully appreciate the Catholic Church's position on sodomizing children.
 
The pope is not infallible. That is a shorthand way of saying that the Pope can make some decrees that are seen as infallible. I can't remember the last time that happened, but I believe it is something that has not been done by either John Paul or the current pope.
Texanne, I think that your question is completely respectiveful. I can see where some would have wanted you to state your opinion in the original post, and asked as well. Doesn't bother me.
As a protestant I don't believe in 'saints' in the sense of the church officially bestowing that title to you based on criteria set up after you die. The New Testament term translated 'saint' is 'hagios' which means 'holy one.' It was used of those who follow Jesus in Scripture and I believe is more rightly applied to the Church universal, and those in the Church.
I understand your concern about JPs possible role in a cover up of child abuse. It is indeed VERY VERY troubling. I haven't kept up to know exactly what people now think the pope knew or didn't know. I assume that JP was a man who loved Jesus deeply, and was human. He did much good in the world, and also sinned (committed evil deeds, and omitted some deeds of good). He was a sinner like the rest of us.
 
I think it will be a while before he is canonized, if at all.

You think?

I'd say no way will it take a while. This is being fast-tracked. Plus, the RCC needs some good marketing to counter all the priest/nun sexual abuse news.

Imo they need to do away with the nonsense about performing a miracle, especially after death. Just be honest about it: they think PJPII was a good guy and want to enter him into the Catholic Hall of Fame. The miracle nonsense is silly.

Not to say miracles are impossible. But that JPII performed one? And after his death?
 
Dionysus- it is ironic that you mock the Pope for his discussion of context without providing the full text. And your use of ellipsis in the last quote (which actually occurred prior to the later quotes) is borderline dishonest. By the way I don't agree with the Pope's explanation, but either through prejudice and/or failure to bother reading everything he said (I'd bet both), you managed a fine work of distortion.

In reply to:
Click to expand...
 
Oh yes, the Catholic hierarchy is now fully on board to do the right thing.

Even after telling the bishops in Ireland not to go to the police with sexual molestation reports and allegations.

The Roman Catholic Church is arguably the world's largest child sexual predator organization, by its priests, nuns, and adminstrative arm. The cover ups and lies are legion. Knowingly transferring pedophiles to congregations that had no idea their priest was a sexual predator. Then the church tried to: blame the victims, cover up the sins, declare bankruptcy to weasel out of paying damages.

The only thing more amazing than the RCC hierarchy being populated by lying scum is the willingness of the "true believers" to still belong to that organization.
 
I'm not sure whom you're responding to. There is nothing in your post I disagree with except the last sentence. Are you suggesting that the only moral choice when it comes to being involved with an institution with disgusting events (hopefully now only in its past) is to leave?

I'm glad not everyone took that path with regard to the University of Texas (let's send Sweatt to a Houston basement for his own law school), the state of Texas (slavery, lynching), the USA (plenty of examples there), on and on. Some are no doubt sickened enough to leave. Others decide to stay and fix the problems.
 
AggieFactFinder: the Catholic Church might be held to a slightly different standard than those examples you cite. They claim not only to be a moral authority, but indeed, in a sense, earthly representatives of a divine lawgiver. They are guilty of chronic coverups and deceptions, not simple administrative oversights or innocent lapses. They deliberately and systematically neglected perhaps their most important charge: the protection and safekeeping of innocent children.

I don't know if you have children or not, and you're free to forgive and move on. But I have kids and I can't think of a crime more offensive and vile, so I say **** them, right to the very top of this obscene and fraudulent institution. The pope and his underlings should be prosecuted as the criminals that they are.
 
What exactly was the extent of the Pope's knowledge/complicity?
 
So it's okay to be a part of an institution with terrible lows so long as that organization doesn't claim to be a moral authority. This makes no sense to me, as all human institutions are flawed and can be improved whether or not they claim moral authority, but I can see the need to make the distinction since you're guilty of the former. And you feel it's okay to project the actions of 2-3% of priests onto 400,000 others, as well as all members of the church, ignoring that 95+% of priests do amazing work. This is nonsensical too, but your feelings about the church aren't particularly rational; that was evident from your distortions of what the Pope said.

I am sure that you don't know any priests on any meaningful level. I know probably 25, most from my student days, and believe they are all outstanding men, except maybe for one. When the scandals broke, I, and a lot of Catholics, thought about leaving; not that I'm much of an active member anyway. But I thought of them, and the people whose lives they improved, and I knew it was an institution worth saving. I realize that's not good enough for some of you.

Don't worry, those priests will still provide a great education your kids should you need them.

And I would probably shoot any priest who did to my son what was done to those boys, and maybe anyone who reassigned him. But I wouldn't shoot all priests, because that would be stupid.

*I'm not really much of a Catholic, but I grew up one and very much admire the priests I know.
 
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