Buchanan: Is Putin the Preminant Statesman of our times?

Musburger1

2,500+ Posts
Putin speaks for Nationalism and traditional conservatism.
The EU and anti-Trump US establishment speaks for globalism and secularism.

http://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/is-putin-the-preeminent-statesman-of-our-times/

“If we were to use traditional measures for understanding leaders, which involve the defense of borders and national flourishing, Putin would count as the preeminent statesman of our time.

“On the world stage, who could vie with him?”

So asks Chris Caldwell of the Weekly Standard in a remarkable essay in Hillsdale College’s March issue of its magazine, Imprimis. [How to Think About Vladimir Putin, March 2017]

What elevates Putin above all other 21st-century leaders?

“When Putin took power in the winter of 1999-2000, his country was defenseless. It was bankrupt. It was being carved up by its new kleptocratic elites, in collusion with its old imperial rivals, the Americans. Putin changed that.

“In the first decade of this century, he did what Kemal Ataturk had done in Turkey in the 1920s. Out of a crumbling empire, he resurrected a national-state, and gave it coherence and purpose. He disciplined his country’s plutocrats. He restored its military strength. And he refused, with ever blunter rhetoric, to accept for Russia a subservient role in an American-run world system drawn up by foreign politicians and business leaders. His voters credit him with having saved his country.”

Putin’s approval rating, after 17 years in power, exceeds that of any rival Western leader. But while his impressive strides toward making Russia great again explain why he is revered at home and in the Russian diaspora, what explains Putin’s appeal in the West, despite a press that is every bit as savage as President Trump’s?

Answer: Putin stands against the Western progressive vision of what mankind’s future ought to be. Years ago, he aligned himself with traditionalists, nationalists and populists of the West, and against what they had come to despise in their own decadent civilization.

What they abhorred, Putin abhorred. He is a God-and-country Russian patriot. He rejects the New World Order established at the Cold War’s end by the United States. Putin puts Russia first.

And in defying the Americans he speaks for those millions of Europeans who wish to restore their national identities and recapture their lost sovereignty from the supranational European Union. Putin also stands against the progressive moral relativism of a Western elite that has cut its Christian roots to embrace secularism and hedonism.

The U.S. establishment loathes Putin because, they say, he is an aggressor, a tyrant, a “killer.” He invaded and occupies Ukraine. His old KGB comrades assassinate journalists, defectors and dissidents.

Yet while politics under both czars and commissars has often been a blood sport in Russia, what has Putin done to his domestic enemies to rival what our Arab ally Gen. Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi has done to the Muslim Brotherhood he overthrew in a military coup in Egypt?

What has Putin done to rival what our NATO ally President Erdogan has done in Turkey, jailing 40,000 people since last July’s coup — or our Philippine ally Rodrigo Duterte, who has presided over the extrajudicial killing of thousands of drug dealers?

Does anyone think President Xi Jinping would have handled mass demonstrations against his regime in Tiananmen Square more gingerly than did President Putin this last week in Moscow?

Much of the hostility toward Putin stems from the fact that he not only defies the West, when standing up for Russia’s interests, he often succeeds in his defiance and goes unpunished and unrepentant.

He not only remains popular in his own country, but has admirers in nations whose political establishments are implacably hostile to him.

In December, one poll found 37 percent of all Republicans had a favorable view of the Russian leader, but only 17 percent were positive on President Barack Obama.

There is another reason Putin is viewed favorably. Millions of ethnonationalists who wish to see their nations secede from the EU see him as an ally. While Putin has openly welcomed many of these movements, America’s elite do not take even a neutral stance.

Putin has read the new century better than his rivals. While the 20th century saw the world divided between a Communist East and a free and democratic West, new and different struggles define the 21st.

The new dividing lines are between social conservatism and self-indulgent secularism, between tribalism and transnationalism, between the nation-state and the New World Order.

On the new dividing lines, Putin is on the side of the insurgents. Those who envision de Gaulle’s Europe of Nations replacing the vision of One Europe, toward which the EU is heading, see Putin as an ally.

So the old question arises: Who owns the future?

In the new struggles of the new century, it is not impossible that Russia — as was America in the Cold War — may be on the winning side. Secessionist parties across Europe already look to Moscow rather than across the Atlantic.

“Putin has become a symbol of national sovereignty in its battle with globalism,” writes Caldwell. “That turns out to be the big battle of our times. As our last election shows, that’s true even here.”
 
Stateseman? Not sure. He may be the most influential man in the world. This has as much to do with his hold on power in Russia and his very sophisticated intelligence/propaganda apparatus.

Have you noticed his crackdown on protests in Russia over the exposure of his mass corruption? Like most despots, Russia is now cracking down on Social Media to inhibit the organization capabilities of the protesters.
 
Stateseman? Not sure. He may be the most influential man in the world. This has as much to do with his hold on power in Russia and his very sophisticated intelligence/propaganda apparatus.

Have you noticed his crackdown on protests in Russia over the exposure of his mass corruption? Like most despots, Russia is now cracking down on Social Media to inhibit the organization capabilities of the protesters.
Arrests were made where the protests were done without a permit and protests were allowed where the law was followed. Just as in the US. Remember occupied?

Had this happened in our allied country Saudi Arabia, heads would roll. Literally.
 
Arrests were made where the protests were done without a permit and protests were allowed where the law was followed. Just as in the US. Remember occupied?

Had this happened in our allied country Saudi Arabia, heads would roll. Literally.

Only in Russia is simply getting out of your car illegal. At least, it was for Alexy Navalny. Next we should talk about how draconian the rules are for protesting in Russia. Why do you think those rules were changed?
 
Only in Russia is simply getting out of your car illegal. At least, it was for Alexy Navalny. Next we should talk about how draconian the rules are for protesting in Russia. Why do you think those rules were changed?
Interesting Navalny was the point man. He has a prior conviction for embezzlement.
 
Stateseman? Not sure. He may be the most influential man in the world. This has as much to do with his hold on power in Russia and his very sophisticated intelligence/propaganda apparatus.

Have you noticed his crackdown on protests in Russia over the exposure of his mass corruption? Like most despots, Russia is now cracking down on Social Media to inhibit the organization capabilities of the protesters.
The first part of the article explains Putin's popularity at home. Elsewhere, especially in the West, he is vilified and as a result is unpopular. Those in the west such as myself that view Putin favorably haven't formed that opinion because of elaborate propaganda. No, I've personally listened to his speeches, and Q and A Sessions. Putin does not speak as a politician, but in plain language and in terms of common sense. It's refreshing.
 
Interesting Navalny was the point man. He has a prior conviction for embezzlement.

I'm sure he does...and had he runs an Anti-Corruption group that published a report on March 2nd that detailed PM Medvedev's real estate empire amassed under the auspices of a charitable organization that he heads. That organization has exposed multiple members of the Putin inner circle's wealth amassed while in office.
 
The first part of the article explains Putin's popularity at home. Elsewhere, especially in the West, he is vilified and as a result is unpopular. Those in the west such as myself that view Putin favorably haven't formed that opinion because of elaborate propaganda. No, I've personally listened to his speeches, and Q and A Sessions. Putin does not speak as a politician, but in plain language and in terms of common sense. It's refreshing.

His popularity is driven in part by his control of the media. There is very little opposition media left due to his takedown of any media critical of him.

Statements vs. actions. While you listen to him talk, I'll look at the actions. They tell a different tale than what he says. The fact that Ted Bundy was a charismatic and polished public speaker belied the fact that we was a cold serial killer. I have the same view of Putin.
 
I have no love for HRC and stated multiple times on this board that I voted for her only to stop Trump.
Do you admit she is responsible for more murders than Putin? I'm specifically referring to her championing illegal bombing of Libya and support of terrorism, but if you want to talk domestic killing, there's as much or more evidence pointing toward her as there is toward Putin.
 
Do you admit she is responsible for more murders than Putin? I'm specifically referring to her championing illegal bombing of Libya and support of terrorism, but if you want to talk domestic killing, there's as much or more evidence pointing toward her as there is toward Putin.
What does HRC have to do with Putin other than she presented him with an "easy" button or whatever that gaffe was?

You started a thread to discuss Putin to which I responded. Not sure why you are trying to deflect for any reason other than you acknowledge that Putin is a despot.
 
What does HRC have to do with Putin other than she presented him with an "easy" button or whatever that gaffe was?

You started a thread to discuss Putin to which I responded. Not sure why you are trying to deflect for any reason other than you acknowledge that Putin is a despot.
Your the one who made a point of voting for her, even as you characterized Putin as a murderer. If Hillary, as a murderer, is acceptable enough to have your vote, then it's fair to point out it makes no sense to rail on Putin after you voted for a murderer.
 
Your the one who made a point of voting for her, even as you characterized Putin as a murderer. If Hillary, as a murderer, is acceptable enough to have your vote, then it's fair to point out it makes no sense to rail on Putin after you voted for a murderer.

Huh? Only after you posted this:
i guess that explains your man love for Hillary Clinton.

Evidently voting for a candidate as a lesser of two evils = "man love" for the candidate.

Now, why again did you feel that HRC was in any way relevant to this thread that you started about Putin? I'll throw you a bone. I'd probably vote for Putin if he was running against Hitler too. Does that mean I love him?
 
I already explained. Hillary isn't relative to the initial post, but she is relevant to your reply when you characterized Putin as a murderer. If by your reasoning a murderer cannot be considered a statesman or a legitimate leader, then you are a hypocrite for having voted for one.

The theme of the initial post is that Putin is the global statesman for nationalism and traditional conservatism.
You didn't want to discuss that, choosing instead to spout off character defamations equating Putin with Bundy. So I ask, who first veered off topic?
 
I already explained. Hillary isn't relative to the initial post, but she is relevant to your reply when you characterized Putin as a murderer. If by your reasoning a murderer cannot be considered a statesman or a legitimate leader, then you are a hypocrite for having voted for one.

No, she's still not relative to my reply because by your definition I was a hypocrite for even voting because to think our foreign policy would suddenly change under any other leader is beyond crazy thinking. Would drone strikes suddenly stop? Would CIA activity in foreign lands come to a halt? Would we stop assisting the Iraqis/Kurds in their fight against ISIS? Your extremely broad use of the term "murderer" leaves your argument paper thin. Then to go on and equate a foreign intervention with assassination of political opponents is beyond absurd.

The theme of the initial post is that Putin is the global statesman for nationalism and traditional conservatism.
You didn't want to discuss that, choosing instead to spout off character defamations equating Putin with Bundy. So I ask, who first veered off topic?

Wait, we can't consider Putin's dirty dealings and corruption when determining whether he's the worlds best statesman? My Putin/Bundy analogy was because you claimed you were listening to Putin and while I was pointing to his actions. The point was someone can be charismatic yet a very bad dude. You appear to be smitten by the charisma.
 
No, she's still not relative to my reply because by your definition I was a hypocrite for even voting because to think our foreign policy would suddenly change under any other leader is beyond crazy thinking. Would drone strikes suddenly stop? Would CIA activity in foreign lands come to a halt? Would we stop assisting the Iraqis/Kurds in their fight against ISIS? Your extremely broad use of the term "murderer" leaves your argument paper thin. Then to go on and equate a foreign intervention with assassination of political opponents is beyond absurd.
Would you mind rephrasing the entire paragraph? I have no clue what you said.

Wait, we can't consider Putin's dirty dealings and corruption when determining whether he's the worlds best statesman? My Putin/Bundy analogy was because you claimed you were listening to Putin and while I was pointing to his actions. The point was someone can be charismatic yet a very bad dude. You appear to be smitten by the charisma.
The accusations about Putin's "dirty dealings" are just that. Accusations based on hearsay. The murdered journalists, the poisoned politician, etc. There has never been any proof Putin was behind them.

I posted Buchanan's oped with the hope someone would be interested in discussing the narrative of globalism vs nationalism, and within that context where Putin fits it. None of that interests you in the slightest. You get off on your tit-for-tat style of posting where you argue just for the sake of arguing. I've played along with you, but its getting old.
 
No, she's still not relative to my reply because by your definition I was a hypocrite for even voting because to think our foreign policy would suddenly change under any other leader is beyond crazy thinking. Would drone strikes suddenly stop? Would CIA activity in foreign lands come to a halt? Would we stop assisting the Iraqis/Kurds in their fight against ISIS? Your extremely broad use of the term "murderer" leaves your argument paper thin. Then to go on and equate a foreign intervention with assassination of political opponents is beyond absurd.
Would you mind rephrasing the entire paragraph? I have no clue what you said.

HRC is still not related to my position. Your assumption is that I supported her which I did not. She was better than the alternative (Trump) which is the only reason I voted for her. Furthermore, claiming attempts to kill Ghadafi elements as they attack rebels thought to be supportive of US interest is the same as assassinating former Russian Oligarchs, media persons, and other challengers to Putin's throne is a bit much. The latter was done with the intention of preserving his own power. Drone attacks in the ME are done with preserving/protecting AMERICAN interests. There is a significant difference.

The accusations about Putin's "dirty dealings" are just that. Accusations based on hearsay. The murdered journalists, the poisoned politician, etc. There has never been any proof Putin was behind them.

Nobody ever lives long enough to get proof. Next you'll tell me that Putin lives a meager lifestyle too.

I posted Buchanan's oped with the hope someone would be interested in discussing the narrative of globalism vs nationalism, and within that context where Putin fits it.

You posted it to celebrate Putin, which it typical. He is driving a nationalism globally albeit it's not always with his leadership but rather using espionage like he did in the US election and is now doing throughout Europe. I tend to think "diplomacy" when I see Statesman and Putin is more impactful which his propaganda machine rather than diplomacy.
 
Yes, I find listening to a murderous dictator soothing and tranquil also.

Some people will tell you that Hitler or Mao are the most soothing to listen to. If you're one of those people, you really need to try Kim Il-Sung. It's like listening to the sound of the ocean.
 
Ruh roh, 10 dead and 30+ wounded in metro explosion in St. Petersburg, Russia. Believed to be terrorist attack.

I've been eager for this to spread into the homeland of other non-Muslim superpowers like China and Russia. Once they're on the same page as us feeling the urgency to snuff out radical Islamic terrorism, it's on like Donkey Kong.

If Dems weren't so hell bent on witch hunting, this would be a perfect opportunity to reach out to Putin and offer a coordinated effort to unleash the fury.

There's so much to be gained by working together to an extent in Syria. Safe zones for refugees and ending their flow to the West being first and foremost.

Stopping the refugee flow with safe zones and unleashing coordinated hell to cripple ISIS would put a massive dent on this growing terrorist issue.
 
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My Putin/Bundy analogy was because you claimed you were listening to Putin and while I was pointing to his actions. The point was someone can be charismatic yet a very bad dude.

I thought that was fairly obvious what point you were trying to make. I don't understand the retort of "Oh, so you find it soothing when you listen to murderers" - some people are soothing to listen to, some are inspiring, some are confusing, some are annoying, and I don't think any of those give any clue as to whether or not someone is a murderer.

Yet while politics under both czars and commissars has often been a blood sport in Russia, what has Putin done to his domestic enemies to rival what our Arab ally Gen. Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi has done to the Muslim Brotherhood he overthrew in a military coup in Egypt?

What has Putin done to rival what our NATO ally President Erdogan has done in Turkey, jailing 40,000 people since last July’s coup — or our Philippine ally Rodrigo Duterte, who has presided over the extrajudicial killing of thousands of drug dealers?

So basically, Putin can be considered the world's premier statesman despite doing bad things because there are other people who are USA allies who have done even more bad things than he has?
 
Kind of off topic, but Churchill was considered to be the great statesman of his day. There's more than a few "bad things" attributed to him by the way.

Just what are these "bad things" that Putin has done; not allegedly, but actually proven to be bad?

Off the top of my head.

1. Putin ordered a bunch of journalists to be killed and had a Ukrainian Presidential candidate poisoned.
Not proven. The CIA has also engaged in similarly despicable behavior such as assassination attempts on Castro and the like, but that doesn't mean every specific action is personally approved by the President. Both in the US and in Russia.

2. Putin stole privately owned companies and then gave them to his buddies or nationalized them.
The Russian economy was looted in the 90's and rife with corruption. Putin, a lawyer, found legal avenues to prosecute oligarchs and bring them to justice or arrange settlements.

3. Putin invaded Georgia.
This is an outright fabrication. It was Georgia that engaged in a surprise attack of Ossetia (something Georgia would not have engaged in without the complicit approval from the US) while Putin was in attendance at the Beijing Olympics. Russia defeated the Georgian army but did not follow through by ousting the Georgian President or occupy the country.

4. Putin invaded Ukraine and seized Crimea, forcing its citizens to vote for annexation at gunpoint.
Probably the biggest lie/fake news of the century.

5. Putin has used his office to amass billions of dollars and is perhaps the richest man in the world.
More innuendo. The recent corruption protests were aimed at Medvedev, not Putin. Just more fuel to polarize the masses.
 
So basically, Putin can be considered the world's premier statesman despite doing bad things because there are other people who are USA allies who have done even more bad things than he has?

I'd also take issue with the contention that Erdogan and Duterte are American allies. Their nations have been historic allies, but neither are on particularly friendly terms with the US.
 
Something occurred to me in regards to the metro suicide bombing in St. Petersburg.

Putin now has a muti-facted dilemma to deal with. Russia will host the 2018 World Cup. Guess where two important matches will take place...

"The Krestovsky Stadium in Saint Petersburg will host the first semi-final on 10 July and the third place match on 14 July."

Can't be good for business if potential World Cup tourists are facing a legitimate terror threat. On the flip side, aspiring suicide bombers are about to receive ideal targets.
 
but did not follow through by ousting the Georgian President or occupy the country.

Which is irrelevant to whether or not they invaded. It was a civil war in Georgia, Russia moved in, and gained de facto control of the area and the pipelines within. Don't let the fact that they didn't have / couldn't have gotten away with officially declaring it to be part of Russia instead of part of Georgia fool you.

. Putin invaded Ukraine and seized Crimea, forcing its citizens to vote for annexation at gunpoint.
Probably the biggest lie/fake news of the century.

So he didn't move troops into any part of the Ukraine? He didn't gain partial control over Crimea? The annexation/anschluss vote couldn't possibly have been affected by Russia in any way?

Just what are these "bad things" that Putin has done; not allegedly, but actually proven to be bad?

How notably you left out their support of Assad. We may not be in the right in Syria, but Russia is definitely in the wrong.

The CIA has also engaged in similarly despicable behavior

It's wrong when we've done it too, but as I said before "Other people did it" doesn't make Putin or Russia any better or worse. Leave that line of logic to OU.
 

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