Brookings view on Ukraine

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Hu_Fan

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Ukraine: A Prize Neither Russia Nor the West Can Afford to Win

This is not a surface view of simple geopolitical arithmetic, it is a 7-layer cake of economic analysis of trade and economic relations between Ukraine and Russia with graphs and focused clarification. The point: there is an interdependence between the two countries, and is more than simply a political matter of 'druthers' based on sentiment. There are real economic matters at hand. To go with human nature and 'politics.'

This morning, on "Morning Joe" (MSNBC) guest was Mika's father (Prof) Zbigniew Brzezinski. He pretty much said the same thing. Necessary for a guarantee there will not be a Nato Ukraine, for any reasonable workable outcome. I take he's speaking from years of experience in the field.

Nobody (US-EU-West, Ukraine, Russia) wins if "Ukraine as Poland." Explains why.

Nobody wins if "Ukraine as Malaya Rossiya": it would suck Russia dry, bad for Russia and bad for Ukraine.

The tenable position is "Ukraine as Finland," and explains. Here's a graphic table that outlines what is detailed in the report. I found it interesting and objective. A lot less emotional bias than I read even in Wall Street Journal, which I just cancelled after too many neocon op-ed pieces on the topic. I'm now a man without a country living on an island of my own objectivity: neither a flaming progressive liberal, nor a super patriotic neocon in love with Pax Romana.. er.. Pax Americana!. So can't embrace NY Times or WSJ completely.

Mises Institute and Brookings most often produce views I can digest with plausibility and understanding. This was one.

On the table below, I can embrace the middle position of Ukraine as Finland in True Finlandization with 'Russia condition." As to Russia being 'antagonistic' I accept that in so far as it means antagonistic toward unipolar superpower rule, which I am also antagonistic toward whether that power is wielded by the US, Russia, China, Japan, UK, Germany, France or anyone else.

RussiaUk_zps57811e3e.jpg
 
Thanks for posting the Brookings Chart.

Here's a link to an op-ed that I think is pretty fair. Link.

I'll attempt to paste article below.

In reply to:

 
Paso, If you had an ounce of analytically ability, you would begin to realize the events in the Middle East, and Eurasia are not isolated or disconnected. The formation and training of Islamists that formed ISIS is primarily a function of US/Saudi/Qatar policy to overthrow Assad in Syria.

For the Arabs, a new Syrian regime means tapping into the European gas market that is virtually a Russian monopoly. For the US, this means hurting Russia and taking a step toward overthrowing Russia and installing a leader more pro-Western (i.e. a puppet such as Yeltsin), thus making it easier to loot Russia.

The millions of citizens within Syria and Ukraine are merely cannon fodder as far as US/NATO decision makers are concerned.

The US war against ISIS basically amounts to appeasing the US public and not allowing ISIS to go to far. While we throw a bomb or two at them, covert operatives continue to train them.

Meanwhile, the US continues to sell billions of dollars of armament to the Saudi's, Bahrain, Kuwait, and Quater. A percentage of those arms are funneled to ISIS.

But then the sources most Americans rely on for news (not just Brian Williams, but virtually the entire media complex) don't touch these factors. Instead, they simplify everything down to Assad is bad. Putin is Hitler. ISIS is bad. And the US merely wants to save the world for freedom and democracy. It's all a bunch of BS.
 
The only bad actor in Ukraine is Russia. It is ridiculous to blame anyone else.

Russia stole Crimea. Russia is fighting in the Donbass.

I hope the US begins to supply arms to Ukraine. I think a US armed and supplied Ukraine could defeat Russia.

and f Russia and f Putin

I love seeing their economy implode.
 
Paso, Russia is giving indirect aid to the militia, but the Russian army is not in Ukraine. If Russia had any desire to annex the Eastern portion of Ukraine, they could have accomplished it within a few days months ago. Practically everything released by the Ukraine press and reported by the Western press are complete and total fabrications.

The fact is that the United States installed a new government in Ukraine, had planned this for years, and continue to be the aggressor in the region. There is a strong right wing, neo Nazi influence within the Ukraine government which is totally ignored by the US government and the press. They can get away with this because the public is largely apathetic, too lazy to investigate other sources, and not knowledgeable enough to apply critical thinking to sort out what makes sense and what doesn't.
 
The people I know in Ukraine disagree with everything you posted. I choose to believe them. Crimea makes it easy to believe that they are right and you are wrong.
 
paso, Musberger MIGHT be KGB. I emphasize might because I don't want to die of polonium poisoning.

Former KGB admit now to starting lies in Western media to support USSR actions, with Putin in control I expect nothing less.

Musberger is absolutely WRONG about the presence of Russian military in Ukraine, They absolutely are there as pictures of uniformed Russian military in Ukraine were taken and publicized on social media. The Russians have taken off the uniforms but they are still there, no doubt about it.

If those in Ukraine want to be in NATO. They need to be in it. Of course that desire is what started this whole problem in the first place.
 
Speaking of KGB, wasn't CIA director Brennan in Ukraine a couple of times last year? What was that all about? Not just an agent, but the director. But then, where in the world isn't the CIA? Everybody is the business of Washington these days. Map below.

Anyway... things may be moving in the right direction, and thanks to Washington being less involved in the talks, European leaders more.
Ukraine conflict: four-nation peace talks in Minsk aim to end crisis -- The Guardian UK, 8-Feb
In reply to:


 
Using the term "empire" to describe the US before the late 19th century is a complete mischaracterization. The US was obviously a colony until 1776. There is no logical or reasonable rationale for calling the US an empire in 1800 a mere 24 after removing themselves from the British Empire.

Even today the US isn't an empire like the Britian, Spain, and France were a couple hundred years ago. Again a complete mischaracterization of US foreign policy. Yes the US has a great amount of influence around the world and will continue to for the foreseeable future. But that is not what an empire is. If it is then you can call Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey that as well.

This whole article reeks of the idea of "colonialism" or "neocolonialism". For US to be the bad guy you have to believe in its doctrine. I for one don't and I especially wouldn't apply it to the US.
 
Did Musburger claim that we are both bombing and training ISIS simultaneously all with a goal of harming Russian interests?
wtf.gif


He went on to say that Russian military is not in Ukraine. Is that the party line that soldiers have been allowed to take leave to fight in Ukraine, taking with them their guns, rocket launchers and other heavy armaments.

The propaganda is strong. So strong that Putin enjoys an 80%+ approval rating while his population heads back to pre-iron curtain economies.

I fully believe that the CIA is meddling in Ukraine and Syria. Heck, its published facts they were working with the mujahedeen in Afghanistan in the 80's. Russia is anything but innocent in this as they approach Ukraine in a ham-fisted manner.
 
Seattle,
Yes, Russian volunteers are fighting, and yes, Russian armament is aiding the rebels. That is completely different than saying the Russian military has invaded with tanks, etc. although that is what Poraschenko and the NATO leadership would have you believe.

On the other hand, John McCain himself has admitted that the Ukraine has used cluster bombs against the rebels (more specifically against the civilians). If the US actually provides enough high powered weaponry, the Russian military at some point would no doubt engage with full force. Is that what you want? It appears our Congress, President, and State Department want this. Why? Because its our business that a portion of that country doesn't wish to be governed by a coup put in place that wants to restrict their freedom?

And you people cheer?
 
That's as damning as the Russian leaders escaping during the initial uprising in Donetsk. I've little doubt the CIA is on the ground in just about every country in the world.
 
This post was made just before going to the new 2015 platform. Post as normal after it if you wish.

Hu_Fan
(10,000+ posts)
02/12/15 03:33 PM
Re: Brookings view on Ukraine



In reply to:
The CIA not only spies, they actively work to implement agendas of which the American public are unaware of and would not endorse. To my mind, once that happens, the government is out of control and no longer answers to the people it is supposed to serve.



Right after the CIA Director was over there last year, was when the military operations stepped up.

I encourage a look at Stephen Kinzer's OVERTHROW -- I think 17 examples of US intervention and regime change in the 20th century. I work for a writer who was in Central America in late 60s, early 70s, in the Air Force, specifically on counter-insurgency operations and saw first hand what takes place. Kinzer's book details the depth of CIA-backed regime changes, and provides a 360 degree view of things.

By the way, I think Brian Williams speaks for what we can believe in when it comes to mainstream media. Always with a grain of salt, that is.

Okay saw this in today's paper while waiting for my car to be serviced.

I agree with the view, and with the tone. It's not angry, vindictive, or malicious.

Letters21215-b_zps8174f2a3.jpg

pasotex
(5000+ posts)
02/12/15 04:26 PM
Re: Brookings view on Ukraine

ethnic Germans?

the people in Ukraine are primarily ethnic Ukrainians

there are some Russians in the east, but they are a minority in the country and in most regions

Musburger
(500+ posts)
02/14/15 08:30 AM
Re: Brookings view on Ukraine

For an on-the-ground perspective of life in Eastern Ukraine, here is a link to an interview conducted with a surgeon that has now fleed to Russia.

fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/02/slavyansk-surgeon-talks-about-another.html

Musburger
(500+ posts)
02/14/15 09:00 AM
Why did Crimea vote 96% to join Russia?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loKajkXoTBU
 
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