Bonds going down

It was slightly damaging testimony when the equipment manager reported Bonds had a larger hat size one year.
This era has really runined baseball records. If they strike Bonds records, what about numerous others which are just as suspect? I don't think they can delete the records, but any thinking fan would place an asterisk beside them.
 
I agree, all records the past 20-25 yrs are really suspect. Personally I can't accept any of them...but i have no vote on none of this here stuff.....
I used to admire Roger. Really admire him....Still do as a Longhorn, his pre-steroid usage (i would hope). But his MLB #'s are tainted as are the entire generation. Unfair to paint everyone w/ the brush, but personally I think there's no choice. Players and management should have blown the whistle when this was going on.....Now we'll never know who juiced, who didn't
 
No need to strike or put asterisks next to the records. Why would we find something suspect that Major League Baseball did not?

Call it cheating all you want, but Selig and the rest of the league knew exactly what was going on and did nothing until it was way too late. To borrow from Aaron Sorkin: "They WANTED those records. They NEEDED those records."

Baseball was in the crapper after the 1994 strike. MLB would have allowed Tony Montana selling blow in the dugouts between innings if it meant more home runs and better performance. I'm actually cool with all of the records, because a lot of the old ones were affected by old rules anyhow (higher pitching mound, not playing against Blacks/Hispanics, etc.).
 
11,

Maybe THEY wanted and need records, but WE didn't. Fans do still have a say-so in this.

It's not fair to Mays, Aaron and Mantle etc, that this generation not only benefitted from over saturation of pitchers, a livelier ball, but now they were fraking monsters compared to players of the 70s and earlier. This is blatantly obvious if you watch espn classic games from the 70s vs what players looked like 20 yrs ago

No other generation gap had that kind of "human growth" difference. For those of us that remembered baseball from the 60s or earlier, the difference is ridiculous.

So yeah, THEY can count it all they want....No one else has to accept it
 
This debate is a slippery slope. Steroids in the NFL were very common in the 80's. You'd then have to start discounted records or championships won by steroid users. I know it may not be exactly the same thing since this an individual record, yet where does it end. If Bonds team won the World Series back then, would you then say it's a bogus championship? Just alot of grey area with this whole topic, IMO.
 
Never fear the slippery slope.....

I remember as a kid in the 60s when S.I. had an article about football and baseball players using amphetamonies to improve endurance / make them more alert during games. So it's assumed the 60s ballplayers had a leg up on the 50s and 40s guys.

Problem is, most players said uppers didn't help them much (baseball). They just liked getting a near-high.

I still cannot get over the difference between what players looked like in the 70s vs the mid-late 90s to today....like night and day. So much of today's "legal" stuff is a hare's breath away from illegal stuff in terms of chemistry.

Comparing ballplayers of today vs the 60s and prior is like comparing race cars (machines' performance, not human performance) from the 1920s to the 1990s models. There's that big of a difference.
 
Willie Mays used to have "red drink" before every game, which was chock full of amphetamines. Mantle and Mays had what? 2 black teammates? The game was just as unfair back then as it is with PEDs today.

The WORLD is different now, let alone the game of baseball. Discounting what modern guys are doing on drugs against pitchers on drugs throwing from a lower mound than the pitcher from 50 years ago doesn't necessarily make the accomplishments of Mays, Robinson, and Ted Williams any worse. It's not like you're taking them out of the HOF.

Look at all of the track, cycling, swimming, and other records in the PED era. Should we just eliminate every record set after 1960 and start over?

The "asterisk" and "strike the record" audiences are laughable. The game is what it is. If you feel sorry for Hank Aaron, don't.
 
I have to believe that it was a MLB culture thing and not the acts of one or two individuals. For me that means that every player in the era was dirty. That means that even people I adore such as Brooks Kieschnick are lumped in with the people who were caught via hubris/stupidity.

Where is the class action lawsuit? If I was a clean minor leaguer who did not use PHD and my spot in the next level was filled by an individual who used PHD to increase performance/restore healing then I would be furious.

I don't see how Barry Bonds in jail makes the world a safer place for you and me. I also don't give MLB a dime of my money.
 
re: records broken in "track, swimming, cycling"

You just named off 3 of the most drug riddled sports out there. Yes, the records don't mean diddly until the sports mentioned are cleaned up

I used to compete in triathlons, and USCF racing. To say someone clean vs a juicer is not worthy of scrutiny is not on target. People that were mid pack suddenly becoming unbeatable was common in these sports, still is.
 
I don't know if they'll arbitrarily decide who's numbers are valid and who's aren't, but instead the time period will be tainted as the steroid era. If we're spreading around the blame/shame, make sure the owners/Commissioner get their share. They knew it was going on and didn't do enough to prevent it.
 
First off, I have a problem that the Federal Government ever got involved in Steroids in Professional sports.

The term Steriods is so encompassing. I know 13 HS teammates that did some type of Steroids in the late 80's. Most of them received Division 1 scholarships.

The question that it really comes down to is did Bonds know what was being put in his body? I don't think you can convict a guy for not completely knowing what was or wasn't put in his body.

His head growing, I tried to put on my HS baseball hate and guess what? It doesn't fit. I checked the fitted hat size vs what I am wearing today, 2 size difference. I am 30 lbs heavier 180-210now. I now have gray hair on my body in weird places including my ears.

The part that really just irritates me is that this trial is costing taxpayers at least $50million dollars in something they shouldn't be involved in to begin with.
 
Come on guys. Im not for the use of these drugs but you can't sit here and tell me if these players in the 60's and 70's would have had this same stuff at there disposal they wouldn't have been using it either. And how can you say those past records weren't set by players using as well? Just because they say they didn't? There was no testing in those days. Stuff wasn't banned. Are these guys any different because they play in an era where everything is under a microscope? When your job depends on you doing better then the guy next to you? Hes taking and hitting 370 and your sticking to your morals and hitting 300? Im sorry but in the game of sports where your judged on a daily basis by how you perform on the field i can understand why this **** happens. Do you think they wan't to take these drugs that can possibly destory there bodies by age 50? No they do it to keep the paycheck coming.
 
centex,

yeah, I'm pretty darn sure Ted Williams and Sandy Koufax weren't juicing HGH back then.

Would they, if they had the chance? Any generation of players would, for sure. But the point is, RECORDS have been broken by a generation of ballplayers that were juicing & the previous generations didn't have that so-called benefit . Perception, when it comes to fans opinions, is reality.

Like I said, just look at ballplayers 35 yrs ago vs today. Physically there's a huge difference.
 
Would they, if they had the chance? Any generation of players would, for sure. But the point is, RECORDS have been broken by a generation of ballplayers that were juicing & the previous generations didn't have that so-called benefit

I agree with you.. And the next generation with have something new and better to use to break todays records. Not only are these guys taking but even without the drugs the strength and conditioning is so much better today. Guys are stronger, larger and faster.. They play ball at an earlier age, 10 months out of the year. There just better...
 
The numbers are always arguable when compared across different eras for all the above stated reasons. If there were no argument about the numbers and what they mean, about 1/2 of the baseball fans would no longer be interested in the game. And, it is a GAME after all, so open another cold one, argue with your neighbor about who the greatest first baseman ever was, and chill.
 
Cheating in the game sucks. I do not find it acceptable in any form and that's a lesson my kids will learn.

However, pitchers scuff balls, hitters cork bats, managers steal signs...hall of fame pitchers, hall of fame hitters, HoF managers, yet their records aren't erased. Why would there be an exception for steroids?
 
You guys do know that there is still not a test for HGH in the NFL? I don't think there is one for baseball either.

Bonds broke no baseball rules.

HGH is alot different than what people traditionally think of when they think of Steroids. It helped my Nephew grow from 5'5 to about 5'8. Helps older guys with ED. Many other benfits for men of all ages.
 
the issue is not whether steroids were illegal, etc. the issue is whether he lied under oath about whether he used them. i don't know whether he did or he didn't (lie, that is). bad things happen to people when they lie under oath, particularly to investigative authorities.
 
What bugs me is that 100 million in tax dollars is going to be spent going after a player who didnt break the rules of baseball.

Thats just abuse of power all day long. And hey, for the record I hate the guy and am positive he was a cheater like all of them from that era.
 
I thought Johnny Cochran was dead...
shocked.gif
 
It was a medical condition. He wasn't producing enough of something or other. I don't know the exact medical terminology, I mostly remember my SIL giving him shots and my brother talking about the money he was spending for the drugs.
 
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