Big 12 leveraging Domers?

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XOVER

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There's new rumors out there that ND will come non-football to the B2 plus 6 football games, but the B2 is now telling ND "football all in or nothing." The sugar is ND would get to keep their independent TV contract.

The B2 argument is: There's only 2 games difference between playing 6 games and being all in at 8 games, and you get to keep your independent TV contract. You still have 4 games to fit in your most important rivals, plus you get Texas, OU, championship game, bowls, BSC, all-sports.

The B2 would then add either Louisville or Cincinnati as ND directs, get to 12, championship game, and all done.

Bold move, if true, but is it wise? Shouldn't the B2 relent and let ND park its non-football sports in exchange for the 6 football games, not a conference member?
 
Is aggy Eric your source?
You know, the dude with the SEC sig bigger than the A&M logo?
You know, the guy who's school sings about Texas all the time?
 
lol. No.

I got it through an Iowa State board where there seems to be some pretty knowledgeable posters.

Just a rumor at this point.
 
Xover, the way you've worded the offer, it would be hard to reject (keeping their TV contract is the pearl). I'm guessing the conference has already voted for this offer.

I'd be perfectly happy to let Notre Dame come in as a non-football option. I think that approach would increase our chances of landing a big TV fish. Obviously, we need to provide Notre Dame with a detailed list of the financial benefits of coming in as a non-football vs. an all-sports member.

But I wouldn't want to give them an indefinite amount of time to make their decision. I think we need at least 12 members, and I'd hate to lose BYU by dragging our feet.
 
BYU has some stroke. They would be a perfect football-only school to balance a ND no-football.

But what do you do if BYU won't back off their demands? Forgetting Sunday for a moment, I'm not sure how you can make their TV demands work.

I can't imagine any Tier 1 carrier allowing BYU announcers over, say, Fox announcers. Plus, how could a conference guarantee 4 national games per year, for example? And then there's the other stuff like replay time-frames.

BYU is apparently more demanding than Texas is, and that's saying a lot.

Still, the B2 is supposed to be willing to let ND keep its independent contract so maybe concessions are possible with BYU?

Texas, OU, some kind of ND connection, WV, and BYU? A conference might be onto something with that kind of core.

According to the ND rumor from the ISU board, part of the reason to hold with only WV is that the B2 is hammering on this ND deal right now. They want to see what comes of that before going forward with any other expansion.
 
What has and is happening with conference realignment right now just might force BYU to make enough concessions. (Look what Notre Dame is considering right now? And we have apparently solved West Virginia's admission for the 2012 season.) I just can't see BYU joining the Big East over the Big 12 (for many reasons). We shall see.

I still don't see the Big 12 holding at ten members. Obviously, if Notre Dame takes either Big 12 option, we are headed to twelve.
 
Well, if ND associates in any way, BYU would absolutely have to think carefully and hard about whether they want to make the square peg fit into the round hole. Problem is, ND would reportedly get "input" on the 12th choice, and BYU is probably not in the cards in the Domer way of thinking. Cincinnati is closest to South Bend, with Louisville not much further. Then again, maybe this ND stuff is untrue.
 
If you give them the milk for free, they won't buy the cow. They've been doing this to the Big 10 and the Big East for years now. At this point in college football, it is absolutely insane to go independent with the way the conferences are being realigned to pave the way for super conferences. If Notre Dame is to arrogant to join a conference entirely or BYU is too religious to join a conference, then that's their loss. If they don't join a conference, they will become completely irrelevant except for the fans that cling to the Holtz era and the 1910's. At this point in time, ND has no bartering chips. Their non-football conference is falling apart, all the good competition has bailed, they either commit to a conference or they don't. There's no reason they can't renegotiate their TV deal as a member of the Big 12 and this is the only conference that will let them keep their NBC **** deal. Make dem Catholics get you that ring before you start fooling around with them, otherwise they'll just take advantage of you.


That being said, landing them would be huge. I would concede to one year of non-football participation if that would satisfy Mizzou enough to stay. With WVU, ND, and Mizzou, and others in that region, you start to create a pretty decent looking northern division. Not to mention the basketball in this conference would be insane.
 
I just don't see this. If I am ND, I will join the ACC and the B1G a thousand times before even puking in the direction of the Big12.

Whatever concessions Big12 is making, I am sure ACC will be more than willing to make to add ND and then finish by adding UConn.

Plus, NO WAY, NO WAY the Chicago mafia allows ND to join the Big12. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN. NO CHANCE!
 
Certainly, WASHU, you could be correct. What the B2 can offer ND that the others cannot is the right to keep their independent TV contract. That is a pretty big deal. It is a form of independence within a conference framework.

We know the BE is seriously weakened what with the addition of WVU to the B2, and Syracuse and Pitt to the ACC. ND could carry on with the reconstituted BE and keep their TV contract. But is this new BE a conference that will satisfy ND ego?

The B2 is the only conference that can offer ND a significant competition upgrade, with 2 big-time brand schools, conference security, and their TV independence. Doesn't mean ND would come, but the offer, if true, is quite unique, I should think, and would certainly give ND cause for consideration.

Even if we assume ND would never go all in with the B2, I don't think it's far-fetched to think ND would associate with the B2 non-football, given the condition of the BE. Perhaps the leap to full membership is not as wide a chasm as we may think?

OTOH, I note that today Neinas said further expansion is "not on the horizon", so who knows?
 
If the Big 12 can get Notre Dame to go all-in to the conference, they should definitely go for it. It's Notre Dame, for goodness's sakes.

In terms of football prestige, I think the additions of TCU, West Virginia, Notre Dame, and either Louisville or Cincinnati would offset the losses of Nebraska, Colorado, Texas A&M, and Missouri. This new Big 12 would be, on the whole, just as strong as the old one.

In reply to:
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Hmmm, interesting rumor.

Let's see:

ND gives up independence - great!

ND lives by BCS conference AQ rules instead of having special ND rule if they join B12 - great! I am assuming this. (I doubt ND would give up special treatment if they agreed to the 6 game alliance deal.)

ND would retain their TV contract (through 2015 with NBC) - 12 games on national TV pretty much guaranteed which includes 8 or 9 Big 12 teams - improved exposure for all conference teams - ND would have to give up a few of their historic rivlary games probably likely keeping USC, Navy and Michigan or alternating others on 2 year cycle - all ok by me. (Interesting fact - ND Michigan game has been agreed to through 2031 - yes, '31 not 2013)

Wonder how conference TV contracts will deal with ND usurping some of their prime fodder. Who would claim UT-ND and OU-ND games? Home team? Even if current TV revenues are not increased, the potential for future benefits is there if ND is added.

Adding ND to all sports would be a good move competition-wise and exposure-wise.

Adding ND seems to improve academic stature of conference and possibly offsets WVU's academic drag...if that is important to you.

Adding ND might convince Mizzou to stick around - not sure if that is good or bad. If MU stays, B12 would have 12 teams. Or, as mentioned, add Lou or Cincy to replace MU. This provides more local ND opponents. My preference is to keep MU but that is just me. 2nd choice would be Louisville.

All things considered, I don't see much wrong with this plan other than adding another control freak to the conference governing group.

Ok, Commish Neinas, you may proceed with this rumored expansion plan. It has my blessing.

But don't be surprised if the B12 offers this deal and ND goes to B1G to get same deal. It would be much better for ND if they could secure the deal in their own back yard. Only sticking point might be the TV contract. I figure ND and B1G wait until the end of the NBC contract and then hook up.



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Cincy is MUCH BETTER option than Lousville. It is also a MUCH BETTER school than Louisville. Cincy is a real school with an awesome campus, large endowment and an administration that knows how to spend money.

Louisville is crap. I don't want Mizzou. Give them the boot and add Cincy.
 
I just dont see it, ND has had eyes on B1G for years as their safety valve. They want to keep all their football rvenue so independence and parking rest of sports in B1G or ACC seems most likely. Ultimately I still think they end up in B1G with some concessions on the football money from B1G. Makes to much sense regionally and financially.
 
Per the ND football website, the NBC contract provides for televising ND home games (7 per season through 2015) plus an additional 8th offsite game each season. I thought it was all ND games on NBC but that is not correct. So, there may be less impact on the Big 12 TV revenues than I thought should ND join the conference.
 
TGG: I understand the "non-football plus 6 games" the way you set it forth.

HornSwoggler: If ND were serious about the B2 offer (if there is one), and if the B1G were to match that offer, I don't think there's any question ND would go B1G. If ND coming could change MU's mind, I would personally be all for MU staying. MU staying might also cause the SEC to pick an ACC school, thus putting a big crack in the ACC, which I view as a positive for the B2.

WASHU: It's 246 miles from South Bend to Cincinnati, and 258 miles to Louisville. I had thought Louisville was 50-100 miles further, but it's not. Anyhow, I don't know much about either school so if Cincinnati's the better university, Cincy would be fine.

FWHORN: Well, you have to take all these rumors with grain of salt, but yea, it would boggle everyone's mind if ND joined the B2 with the B1G and ACC sitting right there.

Guys, think about this for a moment. Just assume ND joined the B2 all in. We'd be at 12, either with MU, 'Ville, or Cincy. Now you sit and wait, right? With ND, wouldn't you suddenly have a conference that has prestige and respect? And if the money angle worked for the individual schools better than the traditional model used by the B1G and ACC, maybe even the SEC, might not the B2 (then back to the B12), have the potential to attract at least some ACC quality clubs down the road? You sit and wait, and see if a school like, say, FSU wants to come down the road, right?

At any rate, I think B2 expansion is now on hold until Notre Dame makes its next move. Or, as Neinas say, "Expansion is not on the horizon."
 
So far the ACC and Big Ten both say "all in or nothing" and no independent TV deal for Notre Dame. That sounds pretty convincing to me.

Now, getting Notre Dame under any circumstances would definitely be a win, no question, except for the problem of adding Louisville or Cincinnati. This claim by West Virginia that they will be playing football in the Big 12 in 2012 is far from settled. The Big East can't make an exception to the 27-month rule for West Virginia without doing the same for Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Louisville, and Cincinnati.

Until that problem is solved, the Big 12 needs BYU in the mix. West Virginia still hasn't been legally cleared to play in the Big 12 for the 2012 or 2013 season.
 
big 12 can't leverage an institution with as much clout and prestige as notre dame. they have their own network deal for TV. they have their own special BCS bowl game rules. the big 12 can't even leverage aggy or mizzou to stay in the big 12. these are just idle rumors. notre dame can write it's own ticket anywhere--maybe even more so than texas given their central geographic location.

skc
 
Well, I suspect, tamster, that DeLoss Dodds would prefer to call it "persuasion" and not "leverage." While the ND situation may well be an "idle rumor" in the end, there is enough going on in the real world to make one reasonably wonder. Consider these real-world facts:

* ND has historically protected its revenue independence, which depends upon no football conference affiliation.
* ND needs a conference affiliation, however, in order to support its non-football sports, which ND recognizes as it sustains non-football membership in the Big East.
* ND's non-football conference is being raided for the second time in 10 years, leaving the Big East much weaker in this second raid with Pitt, Syracuse and WVU gone.
* ND has said it will decide whether to stay with the Big East or go elsewhere early in 2012; that is, ND understands it has a problem to consider right now.
* The B1G and ACC have very recently and unequivocally proclaimed they are "all in" and "revenue sharing" leagues.

At least right now, with respect to the B1G and ACC, ND would be forced to give up revenue independence in order to join either of those leagues. With the B2, ND is (reputedly) not being forced to give up revenue independence as a condition of going "all in" with the B2.

Might either the B1G or ACC make accommodation for ND next year if the B2 is reportedly doing so? Sure. And if either of them does match the B2 offer, then ND would certainly migrate to the B1G or the ACC. But if the B1G and ACC feel constrained to pass, for various reasons, not the least of which is conference morale, then it would seem to me that the B2 might look awfully good to ND, as a conference member, over continuing in a much weaker BE.

There is more than just money, however. ND has an opportunity to build its "own" northern division in the B2. While the rumor involves one team to get to 12 (assuming MU leaves as expected), there's nothing to say the B2 couldn't go to 14 (or even 16) if ND wanted to bring along some of its "friends" (either now or in the future). No other league can offer this kind of flexibility to the Domers.

By going "all in" with the B2, yet retaining its independent revenue stream, Notre Dame, in effect, gets its cake and can eat it, too. Well, not exactly. In a 12-team B2, ND would have 8 conference games, leaving it with only 4 for its other historical rivals. ND would gain Texas and OU, however, which, I think, ought to lessen the blow of cutting out one or two of its other rivals.

Given all of the variables, I think the rumor may be somewhat more active than "idle", and possibly may have some "legs"? The early post-season will certainly be very interesting, no doubt.
 
XOVER, if you know, and I assume you do, repeat the connection between ND administration and those at Texas. I recall in the past two weeks seeing a reminder of what that is. Somebody at ND is old friends of someone here. With Dodds? Powers? Or am I wrong in my thinking on this?

Anyway, I would think the shifting sands with conferences would make long term unsteady for the setup ND has had for decades up decades. If conferences grow, it strains their availability for NC games to their liking. Hence ND's schedule.

I like the thinking that ND can learn to live with 4 key NC games. At some point, something has to give. What's wrong with USC, Michigan, Army and Navy? Is Michigan State all that necessary? Like I saw, times change. Something's gotta give.

Why not trade some of that to play OU every year? (If not also Texas).

Some may not know that OU's record winning string started and ended with Notre Dame. Last team to beat OU before it started, and was the team to break it. (49 games right?). Notre Dame book-ended that streak.

ND also broke Texas' 30 game streak. I was at that Cotton Bowl game and took it in the gut. Never had good feelings about ND after that.

What will help Notre Dame's thinking is to recognize which way the horse is riding, and get on that horse and ride it in the direction it is already going. Bigger and better TV contracts, and to see that Texas just made a niche in doing things the new way when they landed the network deal with ESPN. If we can ever get the damn thing piped into providers.

I have felt for months that Notre Dame will in fact end up a football ally with this conference. If they do, it will nail the thing shut and end the "instability" talk.

I think it's always being talked about, and I think it will get done. I feel it in my bones. Notre Dame would be better served to play Michigan, USC, Navy and Army... and then a conference -- and I think the best one is one that includes Oklahoma and Texas, to name a few.

Coaching hires can bring up programs as needed, in this conference. If Notre Dame comes in, I think that changes the hires at some programs.

Count me in on the page that says Notre Dame will eventually do it. And I'm betting on that connection between Longhorn administration and Notre Dame. In the end, human relations is a catalyst that makes facts appear a certain way.

One more thing... If ND keeps the Michigan game and joins this conference... that links ND with both Michigan and Texas: the top 3 all-time winning programs. And then add OU to the mix, for the history going back to the 50s. ND could not do that by being in the B1G, but can by coming into the conference two which Texas and Oklahoma belong.
 
Longhorny360
re: TCU, they never were in the big east==they were accepted to join in 2012. so i think that's why they could leave before their projected start date b/c they are technically still in the MWC this year.

XOVER
Thanks for your analysis. Everything you said makes sense. I guess it does have legs, but I am not getting my hopes up (call me a pessimist). I just think Notre Dame can still write its own checks and is perfectly fine without a conference--at least in their own minds. I have worked with a few ND alums, and they almost take pride in being independent in football. In a sense it seems to set them apart from other programs. Even though it's been a while since they've been relevant in the national championship race, it's part of their identity. I'm not sure how easily they will give that up for money or for whatever.

one question though, why would ND join the ACC over the big 12? big 12 is more of a midwestern/southwestern conference and a better fit geographically.

skc
 
The ND administration isn't the one to watch. They eventually have to convince their big donors that this is a good move and I don't think any of these donors will be willing to have ND join the Big12. ND-Mich; ND-Navy; ND-USC are not going away and I doubt that ND fans want to give up the games with Pitt, BC, MSU and Purdue.

I just don't see it. It being all in. I can see a 4 game alliance with Big12, maybe a 5 game alliance but that is about it.

ND's AD is tight with Powers/Dodds and both Powers/Dodds wanted him to be the commish of the Big12. Boren (massive dumbass) wanted Beebe.

Boren is just an incompetent ******* that would not survive in his current role at any real University in the US. He is a liability.
 
Well, first, we all need to take a double lick from that block of salt that tamster is steering us to: Don't get your hopes up for ND joining the B2. Skepticism can be a wise thing. But as I type that, would anyone here be totally flabbergasted if ND merely associated with the B2 for non-football sports, instead of with the BE?

Thus, as I assert upthread, the chasm between mere non-football affiliation and full football membership may simply not be as wide as we may think it is. Why not? Because of one of those most fundamental of all human motivators: Money.

Notre Dame does like its money. So does Texas. Oklahoma is fast developing a sense of greed itself. These are 3 huge traditional powers. Two "10s" and a "9". Enough to anchor any conference. I would argue West Virginia is an "8", and no less than a "7". Again, a very, very nice nucleas for a sports conference if ND is a part of that conference.

Are they enough to satisfy those big ND donors WASHU references, however? If you drop the bomb on the big ND donors in one fell swoop, then I would say "no, too much, too startling". But joining the B2 would be all about money -- something near and dear to big donors' hearts. Since the big ND donors are being fed the proposal now, perhaps as a mere association, they can ruminate upon it, allowing those donors' minds become infected with the persuasion of greater avarice. Remember, the B2 is not totally bereft of football attraction: There is Texas and OU in that conference mix.

Personally, it's not the big money donors I'm skeptical of -- they can be mollified with dollar bills and promises of greater grandeur (they would understand better access to Texas recruiting, for example). No, it's the ND academicians that I'm afraid will develop a severe case of heartburn. Let's face it: After Texas, Kansas, and Iowa State, there's not a lot of academic prestige left in the B2. Maybe you promise those ND academic types a "CIC-like" structure for the future? Really, there's no good answer to the academic shortcomings of the B2. For academic reasons, it would be good for MU to stay.

To address Hu Fan's question, poorly, aren't the connections between Texas and ND all about money? We all know those connections "exist" as we've all heard the bits and pieces over the past several months. I will do my best to reconstruct some of those bits and pieces, but certainly feel free to correct me or to add to what I say.

First, 2010. The B10 announced expansion around December 15, 2009. All college football admins became galvanized, and realignment was all the talk at the January 2010 NCAA annual meeting. Missouri's desire stirred the B12, Nebraska became fearful. ND and Texas officials began to talk -- Swarbrick and Dodds, as I recall. A marked ND airplane touched down in Austin, remaining several hours. Nebraska bolted in early June, 2010. Suddenly the Domers were added to Texas' football schedule, talk of an annual home-and-home arose from the ether, and that talk continues to persist (especially now that aggy's gone). The B2 limped into 2011. The aggy acted out. After the defection of Pitt and Syracuse to the ACC, Dodds was actually quoted this past summer as saying he invited ND to join the B2 for non-football affiliation:In reply to:
 
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