Big 12 in NCAA's
- Thread starter BBV_Horn
- Start date
Not using this as an excuse, but, I sure do wish the Big 12 tournament was played the same week as other conferences. Most of the other conference teams have had near two weeks of practice mixed with rest before the NCAA tournament.
And with us going to home/home games next season with 10 teams, are we doing away with a tournament? I sure hope so.
And with us going to home/home games next season with 10 teams, are we doing away with a tournament? I sure hope so.
Statalyzer
10,000+ Posts
Seattle4UT
1,000+ Posts
3 programs that define consistency and excellence. These programs win games they are supposed to win.
Texas should be along the same lines... this past forgettable season made the Texas program step backwards. 3 quick exits from the NCAA tourney. That is not Texas basketball.
Texas should be along the same lines... this past forgettable season made the Texas program step backwards. 3 quick exits from the NCAA tourney. That is not Texas basketball.
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
I certainly will not presume to speak for aggy but I feel very comfortable that if we had seen measurable progress in the first three seasons under Goestenkors that aggy saw under Blair, much of this discussion would NOT be happening.
While it is accurate that Blair only won 9 games his first season in, to include a whopping two in conference, the other reality is that the next two seasons saw overall win totals jump to 16 and then to 23 (+14 across two seasons) and the conference win total jump from the two wins in the first season to eleven and a tie for 3rd in the Big12.
Coale went +10 and +7 over that same period (overall and conference). And while Mulkey had some measure of stagnation, she still managed to win more than one post-B12 tourney game. There is also the element that the standards at Baylor have historically been nowhere near as exacting as at Texas (you know, one of the programs that was long a standard-bearer in MANY sports).
Do we REALLY want to measure our progress (or lack there of) by the first four seasons of perenial also-rans? Or have standards and expectations at Texas dropped so far that we are reduced to that and by looking at wins over teams who actually beat a ranked team as our 'signature wins.' Certainly that does not meet what comes to mind when I think "We're Texas."
While it is accurate that Blair only won 9 games his first season in, to include a whopping two in conference, the other reality is that the next two seasons saw overall win totals jump to 16 and then to 23 (+14 across two seasons) and the conference win total jump from the two wins in the first season to eleven and a tie for 3rd in the Big12.
Coale went +10 and +7 over that same period (overall and conference). And while Mulkey had some measure of stagnation, she still managed to win more than one post-B12 tourney game. There is also the element that the standards at Baylor have historically been nowhere near as exacting as at Texas (you know, one of the programs that was long a standard-bearer in MANY sports).
Do we REALLY want to measure our progress (or lack there of) by the first four seasons of perenial also-rans? Or have standards and expectations at Texas dropped so far that we are reduced to that and by looking at wins over teams who actually beat a ranked team as our 'signature wins.' Certainly that does not meet what comes to mind when I think "We're Texas."
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
Hornin' In
25+ Posts
You all might want to consider that the staff you are depending upon to fix the women's BBall program is the same athletic department staff that allowed the program to fall into disrepair in the first place.
Some would declare that insanity. Just sayin'
Some would declare that insanity. Just sayin'
True Colors
25+ Posts
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
I shouldn't speak for mb227 but I think the stagnation comment refers to making the NCAA tournament her first two years at the helm and then settling for a WNIT bid in year three. But that doesn't take away from her performance or the great job she's done with the program. It does mean there are ups and downs when rebuilding a program, but she returned to the NCAA tournament the next season so it was only a minor setback, and obviously not important when considering the NCAA title a few seasons later.
As far as the same staff allowing the program to fall into disrepair, I'm not sure what is meant by that. If this is a reference to the Athletic Department, Coach Conradt resgined after a two-year NCAA tourney absence. Immediately prior to that the program made a Final Four, three consecutive Sweet Sixteens, and JC won two national coach of the year awards - not exactly disrepair by any definition of the term. I credit JC for leaving and giving someone else an opportunity to stem the tide and work with the 2005 recruting class.
As far as the same staff allowing the program to fall into disrepair, I'm not sure what is meant by that. If this is a reference to the Athletic Department, Coach Conradt resgined after a two-year NCAA tourney absence. Immediately prior to that the program made a Final Four, three consecutive Sweet Sixteens, and JC won two national coach of the year awards - not exactly disrepair by any definition of the term. I credit JC for leaving and giving someone else an opportunity to stem the tide and work with the 2005 recruting class.
my stagnation comment was a reference to the fact that the win totals remained somewhat constant in those first four years (21, 27, 24, 26 with 9-12-8-10 in conference for the same period) since wins year over year are one of the metrics that have been used in the TxWBB threads to measure coaching 'success' or lack thereof...
Hornin' In
25+ Posts
Given what the program has done since Coach G has arrived, I believe you have to pick one of the three:
(1) The program was in disrepair when Coach G arrived, so much to the point that in year 4 of her tenure, we are still not remotely competitive in the Big 12 and are a quick one-and-done in the NCAA tourney on an annual basis;
(2) The program was NOT in disrepair when Coach G arrived, but has eroded to the point that in year 4 of her tenure, we are not remotely competitive in the Big 12 and are a quick one-and-done in the NCAA tourney on an annual basis; or,
(3) Black Helicopters.
I am placing my hopes on scenario three, because I can't stand the reality that comes with scenario 2. Scenario 3......well, who knows.
(1) The program was in disrepair when Coach G arrived, so much to the point that in year 4 of her tenure, we are still not remotely competitive in the Big 12 and are a quick one-and-done in the NCAA tourney on an annual basis;
(2) The program was NOT in disrepair when Coach G arrived, but has eroded to the point that in year 4 of her tenure, we are not remotely competitive in the Big 12 and are a quick one-and-done in the NCAA tourney on an annual basis; or,
(3) Black Helicopters.
I am placing my hopes on scenario three, because I can't stand the reality that comes with scenario 2. Scenario 3......well, who knows.
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
I'm not arguing your point about disrepair, just the comment that the athletic staff allowed it to get that way. JC left just a couple of seasons after the run of three Sweet 16's and Final Four, so there wasn't a long delay between that success and her departure. If anything give her credit for leaving when she did, and allowing someone else to take over the program.
outlookdude
250+ Posts
I’m not going to try to argue that GG is the best possible coach for Texas WBB at this point in time. I’m optimistic, but I think even she would tell you that she hasn’t proven that is so with the results so far. In large part I don’t think the conversations about how we got to the place we find ourselves now are what is most important. I think the most important question is how we feel about next season and beyond.
There are really two questions to ask, and they would be the same with any other WBB program. Does the head coach know how to coach at an elite level? Can the staff recruit elite players to your school?
There is no reason to believe that GG has suddenly forgotten how to coach. Her track record prior to Texas is one of the best in the business and that is not something that just goes away. Some will point to Texas record against OU, Baylor, aggy, Tennessee, Stanford, etc.. However, a case can be made that this was one of her most successful seasons from a coaching standpoint. She had a team that lost the only true point guard prior to the season to dismissal, and the best post player on the roster to a season ending injury. With a short bench, including depth problems at the point and post, and a team that was half freshmen, she still made the NCAA tournament. You can place blame if you want for the short bench and lack of depth, but that is not a coaching issue. From a purely coaching standpoint it was a pretty successful season.
But, can she bring elite players to Texas? This would be the place where detractors have a potential case to make. Texas has played with a short bench since her arrival. To this point in time recruiting has not produced quality depth and it was exposed this season by the loss of Cokie Reed and Lauren Flores. Texas put some very good players on the court, but they were not a complete team. In order to be successful at a level acceptable to Texas fans you simply have to have all of the pieces in place. GG brought two highly regarded Texas HS players to campus in Cokie Reed and Tiffany Moore the past couple of years. Next season brings one of the highest ranked classes in the country, and they are all from Texas. I tend to believe that, although it has taken longer than anyone would have preferred, GG has turned a corner in recruiting. The next two classes already have three commitments, again all from Texas. 2011/2012 will bring a full roster, and a team of only GG recruits for the first time.
Of course, time will tell if the incoming players are elite at the college level. Results still have to be produced on the court. I’m with the detractors to the extent that I am certainly watching closely. But, I see a lot of positive signs and really do not expect to be disappointed.
As to the idea that this is the same administration responsible for the demise of Texas WBB – The slide really started while JC was both Women’s AD and WBB HC. I am not a JC basher, but it is not really fair to stay that this is the same administration.
Sometimes it is all about timing. Baylor, aggy, and OU all started building themselves into national powers around the same time. By the time GG came to Texas OU had the Paris twins, Baylor was coming off a NC, and aggy was winning consistently. Rebuilding against that type competition in your own back yard from a team that didn’t even make the tournament is an incredibly difficult challenge. I think coach G made some mistakes initially that may have caused the recovery time to be a little longer. But, I do see signs of that recovery. I like where we are going into next season, regardless of how we may have come to be here.
There are really two questions to ask, and they would be the same with any other WBB program. Does the head coach know how to coach at an elite level? Can the staff recruit elite players to your school?
There is no reason to believe that GG has suddenly forgotten how to coach. Her track record prior to Texas is one of the best in the business and that is not something that just goes away. Some will point to Texas record against OU, Baylor, aggy, Tennessee, Stanford, etc.. However, a case can be made that this was one of her most successful seasons from a coaching standpoint. She had a team that lost the only true point guard prior to the season to dismissal, and the best post player on the roster to a season ending injury. With a short bench, including depth problems at the point and post, and a team that was half freshmen, she still made the NCAA tournament. You can place blame if you want for the short bench and lack of depth, but that is not a coaching issue. From a purely coaching standpoint it was a pretty successful season.
But, can she bring elite players to Texas? This would be the place where detractors have a potential case to make. Texas has played with a short bench since her arrival. To this point in time recruiting has not produced quality depth and it was exposed this season by the loss of Cokie Reed and Lauren Flores. Texas put some very good players on the court, but they were not a complete team. In order to be successful at a level acceptable to Texas fans you simply have to have all of the pieces in place. GG brought two highly regarded Texas HS players to campus in Cokie Reed and Tiffany Moore the past couple of years. Next season brings one of the highest ranked classes in the country, and they are all from Texas. I tend to believe that, although it has taken longer than anyone would have preferred, GG has turned a corner in recruiting. The next two classes already have three commitments, again all from Texas. 2011/2012 will bring a full roster, and a team of only GG recruits for the first time.
Of course, time will tell if the incoming players are elite at the college level. Results still have to be produced on the court. I’m with the detractors to the extent that I am certainly watching closely. But, I see a lot of positive signs and really do not expect to be disappointed.
As to the idea that this is the same administration responsible for the demise of Texas WBB – The slide really started while JC was both Women’s AD and WBB HC. I am not a JC basher, but it is not really fair to stay that this is the same administration.
Sometimes it is all about timing. Baylor, aggy, and OU all started building themselves into national powers around the same time. By the time GG came to Texas OU had the Paris twins, Baylor was coming off a NC, and aggy was winning consistently. Rebuilding against that type competition in your own back yard from a team that didn’t even make the tournament is an incredibly difficult challenge. I think coach G made some mistakes initially that may have caused the recovery time to be a little longer. But, I do see signs of that recovery. I like where we are going into next season, regardless of how we may have come to be here.
Leeroy Jenkins
25+ Posts
I don't think anyone can truly say we've "turned the corner" in either recruiting or coaching until we've had a run of successful seasons. I'm hoping that that's the case but no one can call a recruiting class successful until they've put at least a couple of season's behind them. It looks like things have improved recruiting-wise but the results have yet to be seen. And boy oh boy do I hope Cokie Reed can live up to the expectations that some people on this board have put on her. Her injury has been brought up ad nauseum as the reason for UT's troubles. If she's back and fully healthy next year, should I expect a final four?
BabHorn
10,000+ Posts
Geez, outlookdude, you addressed pretty much every point I was planning to look at this evening. The only thing I will bring up is that number ranked class that came in 2005-06. Seven players, including #1. 5-10 combo guard Erika Arriaran; 6-0 guard Crystal Boyd; 6-3 post Aubry Cook; 5-7 point guard Carla Cortijo-Sanchez;6-3 post Mariana Mergerson; 6-0 forward Earnesia Williams and 6-4 post Ashley Lindsey. But this class limped into Austin and never recovered. Carla, Aubry, Mariana and Earneia all came in off of knee injuries. Aubry played but never at the level that had her as a top 20 player nationally. Mariana never really played at all before leaving the team. Crystal battled foot problems before transferring. Earnie never played without pain in both knees and, like Aubry, was not the same player after her injuries. Carla also suffered a knee injury her freshman year. Erika, her soph year, was on the way to showing why she was ranked by some as the #1 player in the nation coming out of high school. She suffered a knee injury early her soph year and never was quite the same player after despite rehabbing rigorously. Ashley was the only one of the seven that did not have a knee or foot injury. I can’t look at that class and say that they failed to live up to their #1 ranking without understanding that injuries robbed them of that chance. The ones that finished up at Texas played as hard as they were physically capable of. And even with injuries, that was pretty good, just not up to the #1 ranking. Without the injuries, they could have made some serious noise nationally.
Like outlookdude, mentioned, the decline of Texas basketball can be traced back to Coach Conradt’s decision to wear two hats in 1991 or 1992. Except for the Jamie, Heather and Kala group, Texas has not been a player nationally since the late 1980 or early 1990s. Coach G is bringing in talented players and despite the dip this year (look at what happened with the players-dismissals, injuries), progress has been made. Right now, I think she has done a very good job and with the talent here and incoming, she will do better.
leeroy, has anyone said we're going to the final four with Cokie back? I do believe we will be able to be in the battle for the Big 12. That's what she will mean. The final four? well, we will see, won't we?
Like outlookdude, mentioned, the decline of Texas basketball can be traced back to Coach Conradt’s decision to wear two hats in 1991 or 1992. Except for the Jamie, Heather and Kala group, Texas has not been a player nationally since the late 1980 or early 1990s. Coach G is bringing in talented players and despite the dip this year (look at what happened with the players-dismissals, injuries), progress has been made. Right now, I think she has done a very good job and with the talent here and incoming, she will do better.
leeroy, has anyone said we're going to the final four with Cokie back? I do believe we will be able to be in the battle for the Big 12. That's what she will mean. The final four? well, we will see, won't we?
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
Great comments, as always, Outlook and Babhorn. I agree that the problems of the 2005 class were in large part a result of injuries. Too bad because the resurgence and Final Four allowed us to sign that class, but the injuries occured and we had to do the best we could with the situation. It's all water under the bridge now and I agree that the future is what matters.
Leeroy Jenkins
25+ Posts
Babhorn, I don't know if anyone's actually said we should expect a final four with Cokie. I just think she has been used as an excuse a little too much, so much so that some people think she will be the answer to all of our problems. I think our problems go a little further than just her (and I know that some people have pointed that out) and we're asking too much of her to suggest that her being back in the lineup next year will make a huge difference.
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
It's not just the return of Cokie that will make a difference. It's the addition of some great recruits and the return of other talented players as well. I think it's more about having depth at key positions, and a stronger roster overall that will be key.
I agree with Dino, am looking forward...
But, the winning combo is a mercurial thing, and lots depends on various factors....who knows what our future will bring?
Do I hope for a healthy and well-rounded team...? Yes, and enough players to go around...but there are no guarantees...injury is an ongoing issue in women's basketball...
The 2005 recruits are a good example of that unfortunate occurence...
There will not be consensus on this board about Coach G and her 4-Yr Tenure...
Some of us think she will get there from here, and will bring us back to glory days and others are ready to ring down her curtain now...fact is, she will be here at least one more year, and I suspect quite a few more....
I think we all agree year #5 will be the "proof of the pudding" year for her...but again, some things are beyond her control...and that is just fact...
Back to the TOPIC...
I think Oklahoma loses next game, A&M and Baylor move on, and eventually meet....I think A&M will possibly get Baylor this time around...any comments??
But, the winning combo is a mercurial thing, and lots depends on various factors....who knows what our future will bring?
Do I hope for a healthy and well-rounded team...? Yes, and enough players to go around...but there are no guarantees...injury is an ongoing issue in women's basketball...
The 2005 recruits are a good example of that unfortunate occurence...
There will not be consensus on this board about Coach G and her 4-Yr Tenure...
Some of us think she will get there from here, and will bring us back to glory days and others are ready to ring down her curtain now...fact is, she will be here at least one more year, and I suspect quite a few more....
I think we all agree year #5 will be the "proof of the pudding" year for her...but again, some things are beyond her control...and that is just fact...
Back to the TOPIC...
I think Oklahoma loses next game, A&M and Baylor move on, and eventually meet....I think A&M will possibly get Baylor this time around...any comments??
Leeroy Jenkins
25+ Posts
I tend to agree with you BBV_horn, about GG and next year. I'm willing to give her next year and hope for the best, but if we don't see considerable improvement, for whatever reason, I think we should cut our losses and move on.
I think Baylor will beat A&M again. I just think they have their number.
I think Baylor will beat A&M again. I just think they have their number.
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
I firmly believe we'll see progress, and much success in the years ahead with the current freshmen and those coming in this Fall. And while I expect significant improvement next season I'm fairly certain GG will see these classes through to the end - by that point, and hopefully sooner, we should be a championship squad.
As far as the upcoming Big12 NCAA contests I wouldn't be surpised to see all three remaining teams make the Elite Eight, but I have a very hard time prediciting the winner of the Bear-Aggie matchup should that happen. Obviously the Bears are 3-0 vs. the Ags this year so you would think they are pretty big favorites, but I'm one of those who thinks beating a team (or a very good team perhaps I should say) four times in a single season is a tough order. I also think there may be a slightly greater sense of urgency for the Ags given that this is Adams final year; like the Horns the Ags have good recruits coming in but Danielle is a special player, and may represent their best shot to go all the way. It promises to be a great game so hopefully each takes care of business in the Sweet 16.
As far as the upcoming Big12 NCAA contests I wouldn't be surpised to see all three remaining teams make the Elite Eight, but I have a very hard time prediciting the winner of the Bear-Aggie matchup should that happen. Obviously the Bears are 3-0 vs. the Ags this year so you would think they are pretty big favorites, but I'm one of those who thinks beating a team (or a very good team perhaps I should say) four times in a single season is a tough order. I also think there may be a slightly greater sense of urgency for the Ags given that this is Adams final year; like the Horns the Ags have good recruits coming in but Danielle is a special player, and may represent their best shot to go all the way. It promises to be a great game so hopefully each takes care of business in the Sweet 16.
BabHorn
10,000+ Posts
I think OU has the toughest remaining game to get to the Elite Eight. Notre Dame will be tough. OU needs Hand and Robinson to be on. I don't think A&M will beat Baylor if they meet for at fourth time. For some reason, Baylor has been able to stop A&M's Adams and that takes a chunk out of their offense.
outlookdude
250+ Posts
About Cokie and expectations…..Cokie has the potential to be a very, very good WCBB player. I don’t want to put too much on her individually. It takes a team. But, I think that is the point about this past season. It isn’t so much about if she would have become a superstar in 2010/2011 as it is about her representing a piece that was missing. Texas lacked depth and scoring in the post. Offensively that tended to make them one dimensional. It caused match-up problems at times. It hurt Texas when AG got into foul trouble. Her presence would have made a huge difference if she was just average.
Same thing with Lauren Flores. I don’t see her as someone who was ever going to be a superstar. But, there were times when Texas needed someone else who could handle the ball. In particular I remember the ISU game when AT was obviously struggling with the recently broken thumb. Any weakness is going to be exposed, and you have to have depth at every position.
I am not predicting a FF for Texas next season. But, maybe the most important thing about the return of Cokie Reed is that she will have help. AG will still be there, Anne Marie will have a year of experience, Kayla joins the team by conference, Nneka will be available, and Ronnisha can move inside as well. Cokie does not need to be “the savior”. She just needs to be a solid, contributing piece of the overall group. I think she’ll be more than that.
Babhorn – Texas has certainly been snake-bite when it comes to injuries. You named a number of them. I also remember Vanessa Williams playing in pain and a shadow of what she had been. Coco Reed became pretty much a game time decision every game. Virginia Viverette keep trying to play after seven knee surgeries. Carla Littleton was never the same after her knee injury…….I don’t know if I have ever been more excited about a freshman than I was about Earnie Williams. As you said, she was never the same. I remember going to watch Tiffany Jackson play at the Erwin Center in the state HS playoffs. But, the player that I wanted was from her team was Mariana Mergerson. I thought she was the best player on the court that day……..No particular point to that. It’s part of why you want depth. You just got me thinking.
Same thing with Lauren Flores. I don’t see her as someone who was ever going to be a superstar. But, there were times when Texas needed someone else who could handle the ball. In particular I remember the ISU game when AT was obviously struggling with the recently broken thumb. Any weakness is going to be exposed, and you have to have depth at every position.
I am not predicting a FF for Texas next season. But, maybe the most important thing about the return of Cokie Reed is that she will have help. AG will still be there, Anne Marie will have a year of experience, Kayla joins the team by conference, Nneka will be available, and Ronnisha can move inside as well. Cokie does not need to be “the savior”. She just needs to be a solid, contributing piece of the overall group. I think she’ll be more than that.
Babhorn – Texas has certainly been snake-bite when it comes to injuries. You named a number of them. I also remember Vanessa Williams playing in pain and a shadow of what she had been. Coco Reed became pretty much a game time decision every game. Virginia Viverette keep trying to play after seven knee surgeries. Carla Littleton was never the same after her knee injury…….I don’t know if I have ever been more excited about a freshman than I was about Earnie Williams. As you said, she was never the same. I remember going to watch Tiffany Jackson play at the Erwin Center in the state HS playoffs. But, the player that I wanted was from her team was Mariana Mergerson. I thought she was the best player on the court that day……..No particular point to that. It’s part of why you want depth. You just got me thinking.
overseasbbfan1
1,000+ Posts
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